Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

[teya]

but he did find love in the arms of Seven of Nine, and she reciprocated that love. I don't know, I just think they make a cute couple, and I normally don't go for relationships or shipping or whatever it is.

J.

I saw the C7 on screen as the beginnings of a dating relationship. Since I see the whole purpose of dating as spending time together to decide whether or not you want to take it to the next level I didn't see the "relationship" they would have after three dates as written in stone. If that's the case then the guy I've recently had three dates with would be my "life love" and I'm thinking - NOT.

Oh, I see C/7 on screen as that as well. However, Chakotay was pretty passionate about it continuing. Which it apparently did in another timeline.

Thing is, yes, three dates can tell you "no" or three dates can tell you "absolutely."

I knew my sweetie was "the one" by the end of the first date--granted, it went 8 hours.

 

[Amaris]

but he did find love in the arms of Seven of Nine, and she reciprocated that love. I don't know, I just think they make a cute couple, and I normally don't go for relationships or shipping or whatever it is.

J.

I saw the C7 on screen as the beginnings of a dating relationship. Since I see the whole purpose of dating as spending time together to decide whether or not you want to take it to the next level I didn't see the "relationship" they would have after three dates as written in stone. If that's the case then the guy I've recently had three dates with would be my "life love" and I'm thinking - NOT.

Also, I think after everything Seven has been though she needs to play the field a bit before committing to one man before even setting foot off Voyager.

Ah, but there's more tangibility on screen with Chakotay and Seven than there is with Chakotay and Janeway. Chakotay had a thousand chances to be with Janeway, and he didn't, and Janeway had a thousand chances to be with Chakotay, and she didn't take them. When Seven came along, Chakotay chose to be with her, and she with him. It is that action that they took together. If he were not interested, he would not have accepted, and if she were not interested, she would not have accepted. In the end, Chakotay was with Seven and she with him, and Janeway was not. It's all on the screen. Nothing wrong with imagining what could have been, but we see what is right there on the screen.

J.

 

[Thestral]

Now that you mention it if Voyager was the only show you watched then there would be nothing to indicate otherwise. However, as a TOS and TNG fan I tend to take the Trek universe as a whole. There were indications in both those shows and Gene Roddenberry had expanded on them that people were more open with their sexuality and consequently I had a tendency to apply those same standards to Voyager.

However, you're right that there's not much on screen in Voyager to indicate that the 24th century is more sexually open than the 21st.

On the one hand, Gene Roddenberry had some... unique ideas regarding sexuality in the Trek timeline that never really made it to screen. I'd be curious to know what in TOS or TNG (or DS9 or ENT if they help) you'd be referring to as indications?

On the other hand, I do agree that (human) 24th century sexuality is (likely) more open than (middle-class America's) 21st century sexuality. Although I'm having difficulty thinking of good examples off the top of my head.

On the other other hand, there's still this...

a man whose identity is closely tied to maintaining centuries-old traditions of a people who hold to pre-spaceflight values systems.

to deal with. Since we are talking about specific individuals in this case, it's safe to assume that Chakotay's sexual ethics are much more in line with 21st Century Middle-Class America. You can base this on his culture, and on being part of the Maquis - his culture interfaced with the Maquis on its rejection of some aspects of Federation life to return to the ways of their ancestors.

 

[kimc]

Nothing wrong with imagining what could have been, but we see what is right there on the screen.

J.

At the end of the show C7 were dating, they were not committed. Things could have gone either way after that.

 

[kimc]

to deal with. Since we are talking about specific individuals in this case, it's safe to assume that Chakotay's sexual ethics are much more in line with 21st Century Middle-Class America. You can base this on his culture, and on being part of the Maquis - his culture interfaced with the Maquis on its rejection of some aspects of Federation life to return to the ways of their ancestors.

I'm not sure I'm qualified to say whether Native American sexual ethics are in line with 21st century middle-class American or not. Assuming Chakotay was raised with less sexual openness he would have been exposed to other ways once he started at Starfleet Academy.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm half blind.

I keep misreading the thread title as "Onions on Chakotay and Seven of Nine."

Like as if they'd been thrown into a huge outdoor cooking pot resting atop an open fire by space cannibals.

 

[Thestral]

I'm not sure I'm qualified to say whether Native American sexual ethics are in line with 21st century middle-class American or not.

Paging teya... (Of course, this leaves out that Indian sexual ethics vary from tribe to tribe and individual to individual, much like in any large grouping of different cultures)

Regardless of that that, the sexual ethics of Chakotay's people (or at least the traditionalists that he grew up around) are more likely to be in line with our own than they would be with any 24th Century "free-love" "evolved human" bullshit - sorry, more developed - sexual ethics that probably didn't exist anyway. Because ethics and what's acceptable drift, but Chakotay's people appear to be more likely to hold on to the past standards.

Assuming Chakotay was raised with less sexual openness he would have been exposed to other ways once he started at Starfleet Academy.

But he may not have accepted them, may in fact have rejected them. The fact that he rejected Starfleet and joined the Maquis points to that (rejecting societal norms in favor of those more closely aligning to those of your subgroup) beign more likely.

The point I was making - the point that this ultimately ties back to - is that Chakotay would not be likely to dump Seven out of the blue if Janeway suddenly became available because he's not a slimeball - and his definition of slimeball is more likely to be akin to ours than to, say, Tasha Yar's.

 

[Zameaze]

^^^And, as of now, 76.36% (of the group, not the space cannibals) are not eating up the C/7 thing.

 

[Amaris]

Nothing wrong with imagining what could have been, but we see what is right there on the screen.

J.

At the end of the show C7 were dating, they were not committed. Things could have gone either way after that.

However, there is more to go on with what we saw at the end with Chakotay and Seven than the entire run with Janeway and Chakotay.

J.

 

[teya]

I'm not sure I'm qualified to say whether Native American sexual ethics are in line with 21st century middle-class American or not.

Paging teya... (Of course, this leaves out that Indian sexual ethics vary from tribe to tribe and individual to individual, much like in any large grouping of different cultures)

Actually, this brings up another strike against J/C...

While it's hard to generalize across 500 nations, Native Americans do tend to be more sexually open than the majority culture. Sexuality is celebrated as a part of life, a gift from God.

Celibacy is not good.

This has been an issue with the Catholic church in Latin America. Indigenous men are not going into the priesthood because of the celibacy requirement.

As an Indian man, Chakotay wouldn't be waiting around for Kathryn. While some in the majority culture here might call that romantic, an Indian would call it insane.

 

[freak]

Yeah..I don't know about any of you here..but I definitely saw some sparks fly between Janeway and Chakotay sometimes! Perfect episode examples: "Workforce", where Chakotay proves to Janeway that he is who he says he is; "Resolutions", they really hit it off in that one!! Even though it wasn't implied on the show itself..I'd have to believe that they at least tried something; and "Elogium"-in that ep, Janeway asks
Chakotay that "in the future if I have any questions about mating behavior, I'll know where to go". You could cut the sexual tension with a knife on that bridge!
You'd have to be blind not to see the sparks flying between those two!

I can assure you that I am not blind. My powers of observation are quite excellent as a matter of fact.

Just because I don't see things as you do does not make me defective in any way, and frankly, I'm surprised you'd say such a thing.

Ok, teya, I did not nor did I ever refer to YOU yourself being "blind". I was merely stating that the sexual tension was staring the audience in the face even though some of us didn't see that at all. I didn't mean to imply you were "blind". I was merely stating both a fact and an opinion. No hard feelings.

 

[Orac Zen]

Someone actually tries to claim here that there was no attraction between Janeway an Chakotay at all?! Wow. We have a candidate for the joke of the year, folks!

I know someone who says he didn't see any attraction / chemistry whatsoever between Crichton and Aeryn (Farscape). Me? I saw that chemistry sizzle out of the screen from the moment the characters met. (And I'm by no stretch of the imagination a "shipper".) In other words, we saw the same episodes and arrived at completely different viewpoints about what we saw. That isn't a "joke" - of this or any other year; it's just people having different opinions. About a TV show. It happens, and it's not a bad thing.

You'd have to be blind not to see the sparks flying between those two!

See, I wouldn't think of calling that person I just mentioned "blind" because he didn't see a fictional relationship the same way I did. I watched the same Voyager episodes as everyone else and I saw nothing but friendship between Janeway and chuckles. Nothing more - or less - than that. It certainly wasn't "staring (me) in the face". Clearly you and others see it differently and that's fine - to each their own. It doesn't make anyone who didn't see anything more than a friendship "blind" or in any way incapable of seeing whatever "fact" it is that's so obvious to you and others.

Leaving that aside and getting to the actual topic... I didn't see Seven and chuckles working, either. Maybe if it had had some better buildup (certainly more substantial than Seven's holo-fantasy) or didn't seem so unlikely (given his long-running distrust of her...although stranger things have happened, I suppose), I could have gotten on board with it. Maybe. Others see it differently and that's great.

 

[freak]

Orac Zen: If you see in my recent post, I actually apologized for my mishap..I wasn't calling ANYONE "blind"...just merely stating a fact and opinion about a fictional show. GESSH! This has been blown way out of proportion to the extreme! But I wasn't calling her a blind person for not seeing it, although it probably came out differently to her and to everyone else. I'm gonna get off my soapbox for now though cause it was merely stating an observation..not calling someone a name, although it might have come out differently to others(for that, I'm sorry).

 

[Thestral]

I'm not sure I'm qualified to say whether Native American sexual ethics are in line with 21st century middle-class American or not.

Paging teya... (Of course, this leaves out that Indian sexual ethics vary from tribe to tribe and individual to individual, much like in any large grouping of different cultures)

Actually, this brings up another strike against J/C...

While it's hard to generalize across 500 nations, Native Americans do tend to be more sexually open than the majority culture. Sexuality is celebrated as a part of life, a gift from God.

Celibacy is not good.

This has been an issue with the Catholic church in Latin America. Indigenous men are not going into the priesthood because of the celibacy requirement.

As an Indian man, Chakotay wouldn't be waiting around for Kathryn. While some in the majority culture here might call that romantic, an Indian would call it insane.

Whoops... sounds like I was mischaracterizing from my ignorance, since I was saying Indian traditionalists are likely to be less sexually open. Sorry.

Odd thing is, now I think about it, I'm pretty sure I knew better (friend of mine used to work for various tribes, including the Navajo and Penobscot).

 

[teya]

Paging teya... (Of course, this leaves out that Indian sexual ethics vary from tribe to tribe and individual to individual, much like in any large grouping of different cultures)

Actually, this brings up another strike against J/C...

While it's hard to generalize across 500 nations, Native Americans do tend to be more sexually open than the majority culture. Sexuality is celebrated as a part of life, a gift from God.

Celibacy is not good.

This has been an issue with the Catholic church in Latin America. Indigenous men are not going into the priesthood because of the celibacy requirement.

As an Indian man, Chakotay wouldn't be waiting around for Kathryn. While some in the majority culture here might call that romantic, an Indian would call it insane.

Whoops... sounds like I was mischaracterizing from my ignorance, since I was saying Indian traditionalists are likely to be less sexually open. Sorry.

Odd thing is, now I think about it, I'm pretty sure I knew better (friend of mine used to work for various tribes, including the Navajo and Penobscot).

Those missionaries used to complain about our lax morals...

No need to be sorry... You reminded me of an old argument I used to use against Chakotay waiting around for Kathryn to become available. It was nice to dust it off again...

 

[Orac Zen]

Orac Zen: If you see in my recent post, I actually apologized for my mishap.

I saw that, and that's fine. I didn't take offence at the comment. The bit I found questionable from that post was the "staring the audience in the face" part - because for plenty of people, it did no such thing - and this:

[...] and just merely stating a fact

What fact would that be? I'm honestly not being facetious or sarcastic; I'm merely curious. If the "staring the audience in the face" bit is a "fact", then...really, it isn't. If it's something else, I'm not seeing it, and I'd like to.

 

[crusher]

 

[kimc]

The point I was making - the point that this ultimately ties back to - is that Chakotay would not be likely to dump Seven out of the blue if Janeway suddenly became available because he's not a slimeball - and his definition of slimeball is more likely to be akin to ours than to, say, Tasha Yar's.

Perhaps despite my acknowledgement of sexual openness in the 24th century I have a more traditional view of dating than most folks. To me "dateing" is simply two people spending time together to see if they want to move it up to the next level. Until they're sure of that they may not even mention the dating "relationship" to friends and family but just keep it to themselves.

That was the stage C/7 were at in "Endgame". They were just exploring possibilities. No one knew about it. They shared a couple of social activities and one kiss on screen. That's it.

By the end of the episode no one still knew (except Janeway as part of the Admiral's manipulation plan) and they weren't serious. it's not like they were married or living together or even an acknowledged couple. While letting the other person know they wanted to see other people would be the polite thing to do either one of them could walk away without being a "slimeball".

Geez, if walking away after a few dates means "slimeball" then I think most of us in here would be that!

 

[kimc]

Nothing wrong with imagining what could have been, but we see what is right there on the screen.

J.

At the end of the show C7 were dating, they were not committed. Things could have gone either way after that.

However, there is more to go on with what we saw at the end with Chakotay and Seven than the entire run with Janeway and Chakotay.

J.

It all depends on how you define "more to go on". J & C had dinner every week in her quarters and it wasn't because they were obligated to. No they never kissed on screen (although one was scripted but not shot in "Resolutions" and ther are rumors of another scripted kiss in "Hunters") but the chemistry between them was imo undeniable.

Besides, this thread is about opinions on C/7 and you don't need J/C in order to make a case against it.

 

[kimc]

Celibacy is not good.

This has been an issue with the Catholic church in Latin America. Indigenous men are not going into the priesthood because of the celibacy requirement.

As an Indian man, Chakotay wouldn't be waiting around for Kathryn. While some in the majority culture here might call that romantic, an Indian would call it insane.

Well the insinuation Chakotay made in "Fair Haven" was that he was using the holodeck. Besides, indiginous man or not the fact that he was the first officer on a ship where getting assimilated by the borg was a daily worry he probably had a few other things to think about...

... at least I'd like to think he was thinking about them particularly if I were serving under him.