A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

[Hyperspace05]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

At the same time she *was* a part of the collective... And thus shared the responsibility for the decisions made by the collective. They are one mind.

Because if no drone has any responsibility, where exactly does the responsibility lay? If you free drone after drone, declaring them not guilty, does the last drone get all the blame?

 

[Silvercrest]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Because if no drone has any responsibility, where exactly does the responsibility lay?

On the Queen.

 

[Hyperspace05]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Because if no drone has any responsibility, where exactly does the responsibility lay?

On the Queen.

Yeah.. But that is the concept that ruined the Borg for me, and many others.

I suppose it could be argued that the queen is just a drone like others - just one that speaks for the collective.

Because the idea that the Borg are just zombies ruled by the iron fist of a single individual... Well that just is the complete reversal of the original Borg concept.

 

[kimc]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Back to Seven and the guilt thing there is such a thing as "survivor guillt". Seven was not responsible for her actions as a borg but she still assimilated missions PLUS got rescued and got to live somewhat as a human again. It would be natural for her to have a case of survivor guilt eventually - especially after the emotional dampener was removed. Before the removal though survivor guilt would have been inefficient.

Except she feels it. See "Memorial."

How is that possible with the emotional dampener? Not that I think the dampener is a great idea. In fact it's a stupid idea but stupid or not it's still there...

 

[kimc]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Back to Seven and the guilt thing there is such a thing as "survivor guillt". Seven was not responsible for her actions as a borg but she still assimilated missions PLUS got rescued and got to live somewhat as a human again. It would be natural for her to have a case of survivor guilt eventually - especially after the emotional dampener was removed. Before the removal though survivor guilt would have been inefficient.

Interestingly enough the original idea IIRC behind "Repentance" was that Seven was captured by an alien race that recognized her as being Borg and put her on trial for " crimes against humanity" arguing that she was a soldier in a brutal army that had committed a near genocide of their race. The episode would have explored this general idea. Unfortunately, it was altered significantly to deal with the alien ultimately we saw in that episode whose bad behavior was corrected by Seven's nanoprobes when it corrected a malformed structure in his brain.

Although there was a strand of the original idea that survived when Seven had that scene with Janeway.

Another episode where the original idea sounds better than what we ended up with.

 

[teya]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Back to Seven and the guilt thing there is such a thing as "survivor guillt". Seven was not responsible for her actions as a borg but she still assimilated missions PLUS got rescued and got to live somewhat as a human again. It would be natural for her to have a case of survivor guilt eventually - especially after the emotional dampener was removed. Before the removal though survivor guilt would have been inefficient.

Except she feels it. See "Memorial."

How is that possible with the emotional dampener? Not that I think the dampener is a great idea. In fact it's a stupid idea but stupid or not it's still there...

Since they didn't even *mention* the emotional dampener until mid-season 7, it's pretty obvious that the writers hadn't considered it.

But Seven certainly talks to Neelix about the issue of guilt.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Because if no drone has any responsibility, where exactly does the responsibility lay? If you free drone after drone, declaring them not guilty, does the last drone get all the blame?

The Collective is a force of nature. Where does the responsibility lay for a devastating tornado or hurricane? Or a swarm of bees attacking a person?

The Hive is just following their imperatives to acquire technology and improve races. Their victims may blame individual drones or view the Borg as being evil but at the end of the day there is no malice or pride guiding what they do.

 

[kimc]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Except she feels it. See "Memorial."

How is that possible with the emotional dampener? Not that I think the dampener is a great idea. In fact it's a stupid idea but stupid or not it's still there...

Since they didn't even *mention* the emotional dampener until mid-season 7, it's pretty obvious that the writers hadn't considered it.

But Seven certainly talks to Neelix about the issue of guilt.

True. However, is she discussing it with him because it's something she believes she's feeling because she should be feeling or is she actually feeling it?

No biggie. The whole dampener device makes discussing Seven's emotional state (since she supposedly didn't have one until the thing was removed) a moot point.

 

[teya]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

How is that possible with the emotional dampener? Not that I think the dampener is a great idea. In fact it's a stupid idea but stupid or not it's still there...

Since they didn't even *mention* the emotional dampener until mid-season 7, it's pretty obvious that the writers hadn't considered it.

But Seven certainly talks to Neelix about the issue of guilt.

True. However, is she discussing it with him because it's something she believes she's feeling because she should be feeling or is she actually feeling it?

No biggie. The whole dampener device makes discussing Seven's emotional state (since she supposedly didn't have one until the thing was removed) a moot point.

Forgive me that I take the discussions occuring in episodes seriously. Seven said her guilt was real. Tis good enough for me.

She also experienced grief, anger, and pride, not to mention her feelings towards One. Are those also "moot points"? Does it mean they can't be discussed?

 

[kimc]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

She also experienced grief, anger, and pride, not to mention her feelings towards One. Are those also "moot points"? Does it mean they can't be discussed?

Anything can be discussed. I'm just saying given the reveal of the dampening device I wonder just how strongly she felt those emotions. It rather puts a dark spin on Seven's years on Voyager: friendship, loyalty, trust, etc - just how much were they actually there?

 

[teya]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ Or the dampener--being part of her cortical node--could have come with Icheb's, since she didn't have her original any more.

 

[kimc]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ Or the dampener--being part of her cortical node--could have come with Icheb's, since she didn't have her original any more.

Perhaps but you would think Icheb's love for Seven and his willingness to perhaps sacrifice his life for hers would have activated it.

 

[teya]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ Or the dampener--being part of her cortical node--could have come with Icheb's, since she didn't have her original any more.

Perhaps but you would think Icheb's love for Seven and his willingness to perhaps sacrifice his life for hers would have activated it.

I'm afraid I don't understand you...

Icheb gave Seven a cortical node--which had to have a dampener, since it caused her problems later.

Yet, you accept that Icheb loved. You don't accept that Seven did.

I'm confused.

 

[kimc]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ Or the dampener--being part of her cortical node--could have come with Icheb's, since she didn't have her original any more.

Perhaps but you would think Icheb's love for Seven and his willingness to perhaps sacrifice his life for hers would have activated it.

I'm afraid I don't understand you...

Icheb gave Seven a cortical node--which had to have a dampener, since it caused her problems later.

Yet, you accept that Icheb loved. You don't accept that Seven did.

I'm confused.

My point was that IF Icheb had the dampener it would have kicked in when Seven was dying. To me the fact that it didn't means she probably had the dampener the entire time - not him.

 

[teya]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Perhaps but you would think Icheb's love for Seven and his willingness to perhaps sacrifice his life for hers would have activated it.

I'm afraid I don't understand you...

Icheb gave Seven a cortical node--which had to have a dampener, since it caused her problems later.

Yet, you accept that Icheb loved. You don't accept that Seven did.

I'm confused.

My point was that IF Icheb had the dampener it would have kicked in when Seven was dying. To me the fact that it didn't means she probably had the dampener the entire time - not him.

The dampener was part of the cortical node--the Doc said that the technology was built into it.

Seven's original cortical node was removed and replaced with Icheb's.

 

[kimc]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ Well unfortunately the site I normally rely on to check stuff like that is having some issues so if you have the dialogue then let's have it.

 

[teya]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ Well unfortunately the site I normally rely on to check stuff like that is having some issues so if you have the dialogue then let's have it.

From Human Error:

EMH: Is it that obvious? I've completed my diagnostic. What you experienced was no malfunction. Your cortical node was designed to shut down your higher brain functions when you achieve a certain level of emotional stimulation.
SEVEN: Clarify.
EMH; It appears to be a fail-safe mechanism to deactivate drones who start to regain their emotions. Knowing the Borg, it makes perfect sense. Finding one's heart is the surest road to individuality.
SEVEN: I'm no longer linked to the hive mind.
EMH: The technology's built into your node. It simply remained dormant, until now.

The Doc quite clearly states that the tech is built into the node. And since the node that Seven has came from Icheb...

 

[kimc]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ Well unfortunately the site I normally rely on to check stuff like that is having some issues so if you have the dialogue then let's have it.

From Human Error:

EMH: Is it that obvious? I've completed my diagnostic. What you experienced was no malfunction. Your cortical node was designed to shut down your higher brain functions when you achieve a certain level of emotional stimulation.
SEVEN: Clarify.
EMH; It appears to be a fail-safe mechanism to deactivate drones who start to regain their emotions. Knowing the Borg, it makes perfect sense. Finding one's heart is the surest road to individuality.
SEVEN: I'm no longer linked to the hive mind.
EMH: The technology's built into your node. It simply remained dormant, until now.

The Doc quite clearly states that the tech is built into the node. And since the node that Seven has came from Icheb...

Okay then! Now here's what doesn't make sense. How can someone be freed from the collective, supposedly start to feel emotions, have those new emotions dampened then not notice what the heck was going on?

 

[teya]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ Well unfortunately the site I normally rely on to check stuff like that is having some issues so if you have the dialogue then let's have it.

From Human Error:

EMH: Is it that obvious? I've completed my diagnostic. What you experienced was no malfunction. Your cortical node was designed to shut down your higher brain functions when you achieve a certain level of emotional stimulation.
SEVEN: Clarify.
EMH; It appears to be a fail-safe mechanism to deactivate drones who start to regain their emotions. Knowing the Borg, it makes perfect sense. Finding one's heart is the surest road to individuality.
SEVEN: I'm no longer linked to the hive mind.
EMH: The technology's built into your node. It simply remained dormant, until now.

The Doc quite clearly states that the tech is built into the node. And since the node that Seven has came from Icheb...

Okay then! Now here's what doesn't make sense. How can someone be freed from the collective, supposedly start to feel emotions, have those new emotions dampened then not notice what the heck was going on?

Because the writers chose to do whatever they wanted when they needed a plot point.

I know you defend Voyager's consistency, but this is season 7, remember? And IMO, Voyager wasn't all that consistent *before* season 7.

 

[kimc]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I know you defend Voyager's consistency, but this is season 7, remember? And IMO, Voyager wasn't all that consistent *before* season 7.

Well compared to Season 7 I would have to say it was!