A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
^ I agree. The Star Trek XI comments should be moved into their own thread or something. I've seen the movie, so it's not spoiling it for me per say, but I don't want to be privy to a discussion on the film - and if I did, I'd go seek out a thread about that. I realize it relates to some degree to the episode 'Timeless' and time travel & Trek, but it seems like a completely different thread at this point.
About 'Infinite Regress'. I think it's a good average episode. Yet, I'd like to point out, that this is a really good sign, as compared to most Season 2 & Season 3 episodes I'd rate this episode much higher. I just think that Seasons 4 & 5 have proved to be of a higher quality, so this episode impresses slightly less than it would have previously. If that makes any sense...
^ I agree. The Star Trek XI comments should be moved into their own thread or something. I've seen the movie, so it's not spoiling it for me per say, but I don't want to be privy to a discussion on the film - and if I did, I'd go seek out a thread about that. I realize it relates to some degree to the episode 'Timeless' and time travel & Trek, but it seems like a completely different thread at this point.
About 'Infinite Regress'. I think it's a good average episode. Yet, I'd like to point out, that this is a really good sign, as compared to most Season 2 & Season 3 episodes I'd rate this episode much higher. I just think that Seasons 4 & 5 have proved to be of a higher quality, so this episode impresses slightly less than it would have previously. If that makes any sense...
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Well I sent a reply via PM about Trek XI to Hyperspace05 and apologise for talking about it before. *flees*
Anyway, 'Infinte Regress' - I agree with people saying that it was a good Jeri Ryan episode. She had plenty to do and got to show off her acting chops, which was always a pleasure. It's just a shame that the episode wasn't any more exciting. I'd say about a 2.5/5.
So yeah, what about the new Chekov?
Well I sent a reply via PM about Trek XI to Hyperspace05 and apologise for talking about it before. *flees*
Anyway, 'Infinte Regress' - I agree with people saying that it was a good Jeri Ryan episode. She had plenty to do and got to show off her acting chops, which was always a pleasure. It's just a shame that the episode wasn't any more exciting. I'd say about a 2.5/5.
So yeah, what about the new Chekov?
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Yeah, I agree. I really enjoyed the film when I saw it, but I suspect it doesn't stand up well to close interrogation, which is why I stayed away from the Trek XI section. I'll just cling to my happy memories, and never see it again.
I don't remember much about Infinite Regress. I think it was just another of those so-so Seven episodes which might have been better used developing another character instead. TNG did the same thing with Data towards the end of the series too. It's just easier than trying to write for Geordi or Neelix.
I liked it enough, I just don't want to talk about its merits and plotholes anymore.
That's why I don't much go into the XI forum.
Yeah, I agree. I really enjoyed the film when I saw it, but I suspect it doesn't stand up well to close interrogation, which is why I stayed away from the Trek XI section. I'll just cling to my happy memories, and never see it again.
I don't remember much about Infinite Regress. I think it was just another of those so-so Seven episodes which might have been better used developing another character instead. TNG did the same thing with Data towards the end of the series too. It's just easier than trying to write for Geordi or Neelix.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Back to Seven and the guilt thing there is such a thing as "survivor guillt". Seven was not responsible for her actions as a borg but she still assimilated missions PLUS got rescued and got to live somewhat as a human again. It would be natural for her to have a case of survivor guilt eventually - especially after the emotional dampener was removed. Before the removal though survivor guilt would have been inefficient.
Back to Seven and the guilt thing there is such a thing as "survivor guillt". Seven was not responsible for her actions as a borg but she still assimilated missions PLUS got rescued and got to live somewhat as a human again. It would be natural for her to have a case of survivor guilt eventually - especially after the emotional dampener was removed. Before the removal though survivor guilt would have been inefficient.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
As for Seven feeling guilty about assimilating people, even though she wasn't in charge of her body presumably she still has memories of assimilating all those people. A memory is a very powerful thing, especially remembering the screams as you struggle to stick your tubules into them... horrible stuff.
My bad, I saw the opportunity to take an easy shot at the movie and I let it get out of control. But you're right, this thread is about Voyager, I should be taking easy shots at that show instead!Let's not talk about XI in here anymore.
As for Seven feeling guilty about assimilating people, even though she wasn't in charge of her body presumably she still has memories of assimilating all those people. A memory is a very powerful thing, especially remembering the screams as you struggle to stick your tubules into them... horrible stuff.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Except she feels it. See "Memorial."
Back to Seven and the guilt thing there is such a thing as "survivor guillt". Seven was not responsible for her actions as a borg but she still assimilated missions PLUS got rescued and got to live somewhat as a human again. It would be natural for her to have a case of survivor guilt eventually - especially after the emotional dampener was removed. Before the removal though survivor guilt would have been inefficient.
Except she feels it. See "Memorial."
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
My apologies for dragging this thread off topic..
My apologies for dragging this thread off topic..
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Although there was a strand of the original idea that survived when Seven had that scene with Janeway.
Interestingly enough the original idea IIRC behind "Repentance" was that Seven was captured by an alien race that recognized her as being Borg and put her on trial for " crimes against humanity" arguing that she was a soldier in a brutal army that had committed a near genocide of their race. The episode would have explored this general idea. Unfortunately, it was altered significantly to deal with the alien ultimately we saw in that episode whose bad behavior was corrected by Seven's nanoprobes when it corrected a malformed structure in his brain.Back to Seven and the guilt thing there is such a thing as "survivor guillt". Seven was not responsible for her actions as a borg but she still assimilated missions PLUS got rescued and got to live somewhat as a human again. It would be natural for her to have a case of survivor guilt eventually - especially after the emotional dampener was removed. Before the removal though survivor guilt would have been inefficient.
Although there was a strand of the original idea that survived when Seven had that scene with Janeway.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
The Borg aren't doing this to punish or to torture--they have a completely different world view with no emotional context. They see it as nothing more than a normal part of how they exist and they can’t even begin to understand the mental torture they are inflicting upon their victims as they leave them as not much more than a neutered silent observer passively watching as they are compelled to assist the Borg in the systematic deconstruction of other individuals & worlds. Also, she was such a true believer that not only was her exuberance in advocating the Borg way of life so over-the top that even the Collective had to reign it in in "Scorpion II" but I always got the feeling she was being groomed to be a Queen.
Picard, on the otherhand, was an adult with life experiences that shaped his views that assimilation was bad. And of course, unless like Seven who was just a cog in the machine, Picard played a central role in the devastation that he feels responsible for by providing tactics and information to the Collective that aided in wiping out the armada at Wolf 359.
I'm not sure, unlike Picard, that Seven would necessarily feel guilt over assimilation. She was assimilated as a small child and was indoctrinated into one particular alien mindset. As we saw time and again she thought of assimilation as a good thing. She couldn't understand why any one wouldn't want to be assimilated. She never had a chance to see it as anything other than a way to improve a species. In fact, even after she was no longer a part of the Hive mind she still continued espousing Borg beliefs.
The Borg aren't doing this to punish or to torture--they have a completely different world view with no emotional context. They see it as nothing more than a normal part of how they exist and they can’t even begin to understand the mental torture they are inflicting upon their victims as they leave them as not much more than a neutered silent observer passively watching as they are compelled to assist the Borg in the systematic deconstruction of other individuals & worlds. Also, she was such a true believer that not only was her exuberance in advocating the Borg way of life so over-the top that even the Collective had to reign it in in "Scorpion II" but I always got the feeling she was being groomed to be a Queen.
Picard, on the otherhand, was an adult with life experiences that shaped his views that assimilation was bad. And of course, unless like Seven who was just a cog in the machine, Picard played a central role in the devastation that he feels responsible for by providing tactics and information to the Collective that aided in wiping out the armada at Wolf 359.
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
The whole concept of Star Trek is implausible. And you're complaining about the Borg having a culture?
Seven eventually DID develop guilt over the beings she had assimilated as a Borg drone. It was bound to happen, the longer she remained disconnected from the Collective.
The whole concept of Star Trek is implausible. And you're complaining about the Borg having a culture?
Seven eventually DID develop guilt over the beings she had assimilated as a Borg drone. It was bound to happen, the longer she remained disconnected from the Collective.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
My point though was the audience shouldn't have just assumed that Seven should be wracked by guilt like Picard was. You can question though once the writers committed to completely redeeming Seven whether there should have been some scenes confronting those feelings of remorse. And I think they did in the last two seasons to some degree(Memorial, Survival Instincts and Repentance) which I believe was a good point to do so. Any earlier and it would seem like it was too soon.
Was it bound to happen? I don't think you can assume it is a forgone result of simply being liberated from the Collective. Afterall, there were several times the show asked the question if she could be redeemed. I think it was just as possible that she might not have felt guilt. One needs to only look at how children raised in racist environments cling to those beliefs no matter what--going on to continue to perpetuate those notions and violent acts.
My point though was the audience shouldn't have just assumed that Seven should be wracked by guilt like Picard was. You can question though once the writers committed to completely redeeming Seven whether there should have been some scenes confronting those feelings of remorse. And I think they did in the last two seasons to some degree(Memorial, Survival Instincts and Repentance) which I believe was a good point to do so. Any earlier and it would seem like it was too soon.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
It was likely to happen once she actively started to value her individuality AND valued those around her as individuals. That's when it would sink in that she had deprived others of the same thing.
I agree that it wasn't bound to happen just because she remained disconnected from the Collective. She might have just remained the equivalent of a pouting Borg child. "I want to go back to the Collective! Waah!"
Alternately, she might have learned to value her individuality without doing the same for those around her. Effectively, this would make her a sociopath. I think that would have been the most probable outcome, and it made whether she could be redeemed an extremely appropriate question.
It was likely to happen once she actively started to value her individuality AND valued those around her as individuals. That's when it would sink in that she had deprived others of the same thing.
I agree that it wasn't bound to happen just because she remained disconnected from the Collective. She might have just remained the equivalent of a pouting Borg child. "I want to go back to the Collective! Waah!"
Alternately, she might have learned to value her individuality without doing the same for those around her. Effectively, this would make her a sociopath. I think that would have been the most probable outcome, and it made whether she could be redeemed an extremely appropriate question.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I suppose I see what some of you are saying and I can get how she could feel some guilt over it. I still don't think she should though, but I guess I can understand why she does.
But there are a few episodes where other people attempt to make her feel guilty for her actions (like BLT) and that I find inexcusable.
I suppose I see what some of you are saying and I can get how she could feel some guilt over it. I still don't think she should though, but I guess I can understand why she does.
But there are a few episodes where other people attempt to make her feel guilty for her actions (like BLT) and that I find inexcusable.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I'm not excusing their actions, because Seven is just as much a victim as those she assimilated, but, at least for a while, Seven is still a Borg - given the destruction and devestation the Borg have left in their wake, not to mention the normally (to that point) faceless and inhuman and impersonal nature of the Borg, it's human nature to want to paint a target on someone they deem as guilty and blame them for the actions of the greater whole. Seven's little more than a scapegoat when others throw guilt at her. It may not be fair, but it is realistically human.
I'm not excusing their actions, because Seven is just as much a victim as those she assimilated, but, at least for a while, Seven is still a Borg - given the destruction and devestation the Borg have left in their wake, not to mention the normally (to that point) faceless and inhuman and impersonal nature of the Borg, it's human nature to want to paint a target on someone they deem as guilty and blame them for the actions of the greater whole. Seven's little more than a scapegoat when others throw guilt at her. It may not be fair, but it is realistically human.
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