A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager
- Thread starter TheGodBen
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Timeless is a great ep.
As someone else stated, it sticks to the general Trek theory of time travel, that there is just one major timeline. The truth is, they do occasionally change that when it makes for a better story. Best to remember the people writing these episodes aren't actual
Scientists, so I don't have a problem with them using whatever time travel method that works best for the story.
I liked Wang's portrayal of future Harry. He had a weary quality that was pulled off well.
Plus it was nice to see Captain Laforge show up.
Timeless is a great ep.
As someone else stated, it sticks to the general Trek theory of time travel, that there is just one major timeline. The truth is, they do occasionally change that when it makes for a better story. Best to remember the people writing these episodes aren't actual
Scientists, so I don't have a problem with them using whatever time travel method that works best for the story.
I liked Wang's portrayal of future Harry. He had a weary quality that was pulled off well.
Plus it was nice to see Captain Laforge show up.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I'd rather that than have them change the entire existing timeline and erasing/completely changing TOS/TNG/DS9 and VOY!
I'd rather that than have them change the entire existing timeline and erasing/completely changing TOS/TNG/DS9 and VOY!
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
It should have been a reboot that way the prime universe would have continued to exist separately and we wouldn't have to try and explain away a 1701 which is bigger than a sovereign class. They created this alternate universe so that JJ and his team could do whatever they want without being beholden to canon, and I'd be fine with that were it not for the fact that I'm being told I have to accept elements of the JJverse into the prime canon.
It should have been a reboot that way the prime universe would have continued to exist separately and we wouldn't have to try and explain away a 1701 which is bigger than a sovereign class. They created this alternate universe so that JJ and his team could do whatever they want without being beholden to canon, and I'd be fine with that were it not for the fact that I'm being told I have to accept elements of the JJverse into the prime canon.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Yes, that's true, but like I pointed out in my post there is lots of evidence for quantum mechanics.@apenpaap
There is not a single shred of evidence in existence that suggests parallel universes exist, that's a fact
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I don't think of it as an alternate reality for the reasons you give, GodBen - I just see it as a plain reboot, with homages to Trek thrown in. I mean it's just semantics at the end of the day, and whatever any of us say, it's all made up.
I agree though - Nero's actions affect the Prime universe, which then changes the timeline if it were being consistent with past Trek, creating the new timeline that Star Trek XI takes place in. But since the look of starships, uniforms and people was so different *before* Nero did anything, I think we were seeing an alternate timeline with *no* link to the Prime timeline.
Just semantics, I know. I still really enjoyed the film though.
But that's STXI.
I love 'Timeless,' and is about the only good Harry Kim episode too, which earns it 20 stars?
I think I picked a funny time to start posting in the thread anyway. Talking about a good VOY episode, and Trek XI.
It's been really good reading this thread as it's grown - I grew up with VOY and DS9, and it always bothered by how much more I enjoyed DS9. I always thought some aspects of VOY could have been thought out better, and really looked unfavourably on the series for years, until I finally did my own rewatch a few months ago.
I think if you go into VOY with an open mind, taking everything including troubled production history into context, there is a fair amount of entertainment to be had, and some opinions change. Such as my opinion of Naomi Wildman, who I liked more after the rewatch. Neelix too! Though only 'his' episodes where he received a lot of focus and was treated with a bit of respect.
I don't think of it as an alternate reality for the reasons you give, GodBen - I just see it as a plain reboot, with homages to Trek thrown in. I mean it's just semantics at the end of the day, and whatever any of us say, it's all made up.
I agree though - Nero's actions affect the Prime universe, which then changes the timeline if it were being consistent with past Trek, creating the new timeline that Star Trek XI takes place in. But since the look of starships, uniforms and people was so different *before* Nero did anything, I think we were seeing an alternate timeline with *no* link to the Prime timeline.
Just semantics, I know. I still really enjoyed the film though.
But that's STXI.
I love 'Timeless,' and is about the only good Harry Kim episode too, which earns it 20 stars?I think I picked a funny time to start posting in the thread anyway. Talking about a good VOY episode, and Trek XI.
It's been really good reading this thread as it's grown - I grew up with VOY and DS9, and it always bothered by how much more I enjoyed DS9. I always thought some aspects of VOY could have been thought out better, and really looked unfavourably on the series for years, until I finally did my own rewatch a few months ago. I think if you go into VOY with an open mind, taking everything including troubled production history into context, there is a fair amount of entertainment to be had, and some opinions change. Such as my opinion of Naomi Wildman, who I liked more after the rewatch. Neelix too! Though only 'his' episodes where he received a lot of focus and was treated with a bit of respect.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I think it does.
I think it does.
Picard and Data are still alive and kicking in the 'Countdown' prequel comic after Nero and Spock go back in time. There's also nothing stopping it being a pre-existing parallel universe, so Spock and Nero go back in time and sideways. There's precedent too, in the Enterprise episode with the TOS Defiant in the mirror universe. There's always a way around this stuff if you furiously retcon enough.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I know that the Prime universe still exists because of the time travel stuff, but the problem is that JJ wanted to give Trek his own vision and because they decided to go the AU route the Prime universe has been infected with some things from the JJverse which I find stupid. For example, the engineering hull of Federation vessels look like a steel-mill and the viewscreens are replaced by windscreens. Thanks to Trek XI we now have to reconcile that at some point Starfleet went from making ships with viewscreens, then it made them with windscreens and then it went back to viewscreens again.
JJ wanted his own Trek universe to play in and that's fine, but the AU aspect of the story means that the Prime universe is made seem even more stupid than it already was.
Anyway, I really didn't mean for the discussion of Timeless to go off on this tangent about Trek XI. Lets make it more fun this time, we should have our discussion of Infinite Regress spin off into an argument about Mac vs PC!
Infinite Regress (**½)
An episode where Seven tries to initiate mating rituals with B'Elanna? How could this episode not have five stars?!
Because I found it a bit dull. There's a technobabble Borg device that makes Seven go crazy and think she's other people, and seeing Jeri Ryan playing other characters is fun at times. Unfortunately it is not enough to hold the plot together, and most of the plot it fairly standard stuff involving technobabble and angry aliens.
There's a good opportunity here to explore Seven's realisation that she assisted in the assimilation of thousands of individuals into the collective, now that she is an individual she must face up to that horror. I'm sure the episode will explore this issue with the depth and complexity it deserv-... wait no, she's a Ferengi again. Man, those guys are funny!
The end of the episode involves a bunch of technobabble and some aliens attack the ship because they're naturally grumpy. For some reason Tuvok goes inside Seven's mind which is apparently a Borg nightclub, and like so many great men of history he struggles to make his way through the crowd in order to talk to the hot blond chick. Why? I don't know, the technobabble solution seemed to work without it.
I know that the Prime universe still exists because of the time travel stuff, but the problem is that JJ wanted to give Trek his own vision and because they decided to go the AU route the Prime universe has been infected with some things from the JJverse which I find stupid. For example, the engineering hull of Federation vessels look like a steel-mill and the viewscreens are replaced by windscreens. Thanks to Trek XI we now have to reconcile that at some point Starfleet went from making ships with viewscreens, then it made them with windscreens and then it went back to viewscreens again.
JJ wanted his own Trek universe to play in and that's fine, but the AU aspect of the story means that the Prime universe is made seem even more stupid than it already was.
That's what I like to think too, but some people prefer to think that they're the same. The canon issue was already muddy enough, this just makes things more complicated.
Anyway, I really didn't mean for the discussion of Timeless to go off on this tangent about Trek XI.
Lets make it more fun this time, we should have our discussion of Infinite Regress spin off into an argument about Mac vs PC!Infinite Regress (**½)
An episode where Seven tries to initiate mating rituals with B'Elanna? How could this episode not have five stars?!
Because I found it a bit dull. There's a technobabble Borg device that makes Seven go crazy and think she's other people, and seeing Jeri Ryan playing other characters is fun at times. Unfortunately it is not enough to hold the plot together, and most of the plot it fairly standard stuff involving technobabble and angry aliens.
There's a good opportunity here to explore Seven's realisation that she assisted in the assimilation of thousands of individuals into the collective, now that she is an individual she must face up to that horror. I'm sure the episode will explore this issue with the depth and complexity it deserv-... wait no, she's a Ferengi again. Man, those guys are funny!
The end of the episode involves a bunch of technobabble and some aliens attack the ship because they're naturally grumpy. For some reason Tuvok goes inside Seven's mind which is apparently a Borg nightclub, and like so many great men of history he struggles to make his way through the crowd in order to talk to the hot blond chick. Why? I don't know, the technobabble solution seemed to work without it.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Timeless
I just go with what Obrien said in Visionary, "I hate Temperal Mechanics." As for the episode itself, it's my favorite episode of the season and the best Kim episode, right up there with The Chute.
Infinite Regress
Jeri was great with the multiple personality disorder thing. Not the best episode of the season, but I enjoyed it still. I guess it's that Masks side of me coming out.
Timeless
I just go with what Obrien said in Visionary, "I hate Temperal Mechanics." As for the episode itself, it's my favorite episode of the season and the best Kim episode, right up there with The Chute.
Infinite Regress
Jeri was great with the multiple personality disorder thing. Not the best episode of the season, but I enjoyed it still. I guess it's that Masks side of me coming out.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Infinite Regress gets 3 stars out of four from me.
It is a decent, not great episode. I liked that we got a bit more into the technological side of how the Borg Hive Mind is formed with the introduction of the vinculum and then later on in "Unimatrix Zero II" with the central plexus but I doubt the Borg would bother to retain the entirety of the neural patterns of every assimilated person--they would strip the pattern and only assimilate the relevant memories.
Jeri Ryan did a good job with displaying multiple personalities so the early portions of the episode work better. I wasn't that crazy about the aliens or the routine battle scenes. Still it was a step up from "Extreme Risk" or "Once Upon a Time" and the next episode "Nothing Human".
Infinite Regress gets 3 stars out of four from me.
It is a decent, not great episode. I liked that we got a bit more into the technological side of how the Borg Hive Mind is formed with the introduction of the vinculum and then later on in "Unimatrix Zero II" with the central plexus but I doubt the Borg would bother to retain the entirety of the neural patterns of every assimilated person--they would strip the pattern and only assimilate the relevant memories.
Jeri Ryan did a good job with displaying multiple personalities so the early portions of the episode work better. I wasn't that crazy about the aliens or the routine battle scenes. Still it was a step up from "Extreme Risk" or "Once Upon a Time" and the next episode "Nothing Human".
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Agreed - if she hadn't already, Jeri Ryan really proved she was far more than 'that Borg babe' with her performances of various different people the Borg assimilated. Other than that though, there's nothing really speaking to this episode.
While I'm talking about the episode, by the way, I think the 'reflection is someone else' gag REALLY did not work. I mean, really. I get that it's letting the audience know that something is up with Seven... but starting the episode off with her raiding the Mess Hall for food is enough. It's basically saying that someone doesn't think much of the audience's intelligence.
Agreed - if she hadn't already, Jeri Ryan really proved she was far more than 'that Borg babe' with her performances of various different people the Borg assimilated. Other than that though, there's nothing really speaking to this episode.
While I'm talking about the episode, by the way, I think the 'reflection is someone else' gag REALLY did not work. I mean, really. I get that it's letting the audience know that something is up with Seven... but starting the episode off with her raiding the Mess Hall for food is enough. It's basically saying that someone doesn't think much of the audience's intelligence.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I find all references to Seven somehow dealing with the guilt of assimilating people to be incredibly obnoxious.
She was taken by the Borg as a young child due to her parents incredible foolishness...then she is turned into a drone/slave with no free will.
How exactly does that make her guilty of anything? She had absolutely no choice in the matter.
I find all references to Seven somehow dealing with the guilt of assimilating people to be incredibly obnoxious.
She was taken by the Borg as a young child due to her parents incredible foolishness...then she is turned into a drone/slave with no free will.
How exactly does that make her guilty of anything? She had absolutely no choice in the matter.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Aww. That's adorable. I didn't grow up with Voyager, but it still has the special place in my heart. No matter how flawed, it is still best Trek for me by miles.
Aww. That's adorable. I didn't grow up with Voyager, but it still has the special place in my heart. No matter how flawed, it is still best Trek for me by miles.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Haven't you ever felt guilty for something that was not your responsibility? It's very human to feel guilt over actions you've taken, even if you weren't in control at the time - how many people do things while drunk that they regret when they sober up?
Haven't you ever felt guilty for something that was not your responsibility? It's very human to feel guilt over actions you've taken, even if you weren't in control at the time - how many people do things while drunk that they regret when they sober up?
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
^ Although I agree with DGCatAniSiri's point about feeling guilty for something that wasn't your responsibility... I don't agree with the example. I believe people "let their guard down" when they're drunk, but they're not completely stripped of their free will.
Regardless, I think in Seven's case, you'd still feel at least vicariously responsible for murdering/assimilating thousands (millions?) of innocent people even if you weren't in total control of yourself at the time. You were still there, apart of it, and others are going to hold you accountable.
^ Although I agree with DGCatAniSiri's point about feeling guilty for something that wasn't your responsibility... I don't agree with the example. I believe people "let their guard down" when they're drunk, but they're not completely stripped of their free will.
Regardless, I think in Seven's case, you'd still feel at least vicariously responsible for murdering/assimilating thousands (millions?) of innocent people even if you weren't in total control of yourself at the time. You were still there, apart of it, and others are going to hold you accountable.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Oh, that one was just the first example I could think of that related even partially - I was close to relating an incident from one of my high school plays, but opted not to because of the backstory. During a five minute break, a group of guys were messing around and one got hurt (I don't know what they were doing, but it either involved him falling or slamming into a wall). After practice, all the guys were kept after and our teacher tore into all of us. I hadn't even known anything happened until that point and I felt guilty for what had happened.
Back on topic, Picard felt guilt for the fact that he was used by the Borg to kill or assimilate all those people at Wolf 359, so it makes sense that Seven would have some guilt herself for her part - she personally assimilated a number of people.
Oh, that one was just the first example I could think of that related even partially - I was close to relating an incident from one of my high school plays, but opted not to because of the backstory. During a five minute break, a group of guys were messing around and one got hurt (I don't know what they were doing, but it either involved him falling or slamming into a wall). After practice, all the guys were kept after and our teacher tore into all of us. I hadn't even known anything happened until that point and I felt guilty for what had happened.
Back on topic, Picard felt guilt for the fact that he was used by the Borg to kill or assimilate all those people at Wolf 359, so it makes sense that Seven would have some guilt herself for her part - she personally assimilated a number of people.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I was perusing this interesting thread, when I read this rather stunning statement which I have to respond to:
#1: Please state how the Kelvin era stuff contradicts with ANY established canon episode or film that portrays that era. Please. I beg you. Find ONE scene to back up that statement.
(Hint#1 - there is none, Hint#2 - you personal imagination of how that era was does not constitute canon)
#2. More importantly - Star Trek is not real. It is not a "historical document". It is fiction, produced with the budget and technology available. If stuff looks better than it did on TOS... Be happy that it does. And if it contradicts... Star Trek canon is full of contradictions already. Nothing new.
I was perusing this interesting thread, when I read this rather stunning statement which I have to respond to:
#1: Please state how the Kelvin era stuff contradicts with ANY established canon episode or film that portrays that era. Please. I beg you. Find ONE scene to back up that statement.
(Hint#1 - there is none, Hint#2 - you personal imagination of how that era was does not constitute canon)
#2. More importantly - Star Trek is not real. It is not a "historical document". It is fiction, produced with the budget and technology available. If stuff looks better than it did on TOS... Be happy that it does. And if it contradicts... Star Trek canon is full of contradictions already. Nothing new.
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