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Star Trek XI has failed... Trek Lit

oooh, you got it off Teletext!!! what a fount of knowledge and wisdom THAT is... teletext is deader than A-line flares with pockets in the knees. anyone using teletext hasn't got their finger on the pulse. it's jammed up their butt.
Sorry to drag this comment out, but this is absolutely bloody true. I remember way back in '96 when they had a story on there about the TNG cast coming back to do an all-new series aboard the Enterprise-E. :vulcan: Then a year or so later, they ran another story about Worf suddenly winding up in the Delta Quadrant and joining Voyager. :klingon: It really is the number one news service. :guffaw:
 
One area I'd see that indicates Keith was right about the tough spot Pocket is the overall way that the bookl ine has been treated like the ugly stepchild. Countdown could have been a great book instead of a somewhat silly comic, and probably been out on the shelves quicker, but TPTB were more interested in the comics-reading demographic.

Actually comics can get on the shelves quicker than novels, because they're shorter. The lead time for novel publication is much longer than for a comic.


Add to that a rumored prohibition on TOS novels in the year leading up to the film's release, and what are they supposed to release?

It wasn't a "prohibition," it was a choice on the part of Pocket's editors to avoid the TOS era. Remember, at the time, we didn't yet know that the film would be an alternate timeline, just that it would be a prequel. So there was every possibility that it might have redefined some fundamental things about the TOS era as we knew it, and therefore the editors preferred to avoid doing any TOS fiction that might be contradicted soon after, or even before, the books came out.


Of course, in broad terms like those, there's always the possibility of:

Option 3. Take a minimal risk. Potential consequences: 1. Make a little more money than you otherwise would, and know that there's yet more to be made in future. 2. Lose a little more money than you otherwise would, and know that you've investigated a potential market.

Pocket did take a minimal risk by putting out the Star Trek 101 nonfiction book as a movie tie-in despite the traditional poor performance of Trek nonfiction. But that was scuttled when Paramount delayed the movie after it was too late to reschedule the book.

Then there was going to be a hardcover Crucible omnibus with new material as a tie-in to the movie's new release date, but the economy tanked, Marco got laid off, and the project had to be cancelled.

So it's not that Pocket didn't try anything. It's that circumstances undermined the things Pocket did try.



Isn't the situation about the 40 year anniversary a bit different than this year's release of a new movie? I mean, 2006 the only recent thing on TV was the mediocre Enterprise, Star Trek's decline was never more obvious. So I'd guess that also translates into poor sales.

But this time, there was a new movie that's been hyped all over the place, Kirk & Spock were once again the main characters in recent Trek - IMO a vastly different situation for trying to sell reprinted TOS-novels...

As Keith said, hype for a movie doesn't guarantee sales for its tie-in books. Look at Watchmen. As Keith also said, book vendors don't look at the performance of movies, they look at the performance of earlier books in the same series or category. Yes, it's a different situation, but try telling them that. They have their formulas.



FWIW, the "replace images of old actors with the new ones" is not an altogether crazy idea. The Wired comic already retconned the Pine and Saldana appearances in the prime reality.

Not really. The renderings of Kirk and Uhura didn't closely resemble either pair of actors and could've been interpreted either way. Uhura had Saldana's hairstyle, but not really her face. And Kirk didn't look remotely like either actor to me. However, the comic did use the movie's uniform design.


I'm also thinking they probably can't do any novels set in the new timeline since they're already fast-tracking a sequel for summer 2011. Then again, if they were given some inkling of what the sequel would do, they could have a tie-in novel ready to go.

Plenty of tie-in novels in the past have been done without knowing where subsequent movies or episodes would go. If tie-ins were avoided due to the risk of contradiction, there'd hardly be any tie-ins. Yes, it's taking a risk, but that's just the nature of the business. As I often say, every work of science fiction will eventually be contradicted by reality, whether by scientific discoveries that disprove the story's assumptions or simply by the calendar catching up with the story.

The way it's worked in the past is that you tell a story that doesn't alter the status quo -- though ideally one that lets you explore the characters in more depth and fill in some more detail on the universe. There's always the chance that a later film might reveal things that contradict your assumptions, but all you can do is try to minimize that risk by avoiding any really radical revelations or changes.

(Which is another reason why I wasn't talking about the kind of huge political stories DaveGalanter seemed to think I was. It would actually be best to stay away from stories like that. They'd probably have to be fairly continuity-light tales. Which is why much of the interest would come from exploring the different attributes of this timeline and its characters, evoking the distinct feel of the movie continuity.)

True, Pocket avoided doing TOS novels last year for risk of contradiction, but that was because Pocket and the rest of us knew so little about the film. Now we have a clearer sense of the basic parameters of the Abrams timeline, so even though we don't know where a sequel would go, it would be possible to devise stories that could fit with the movie currently in theaters, whether prequels or cautiously structured followups.
 
Well..as I have said before.. they should AXE any books series in the old timeline. Only books that take place in JJ's Trekline should be printed...and they should have some realm of continuity to them, and some direction to them.

Yeah, you've said that before. You were wrong then too.
 
Well..as I have said before.. they should AXE any books series in the old timeline. Only books that take place in JJ's Trekline should be printed...and they should have some realm of continuity to them, and some direction to them.
Yeah, you've said that before. You were wrong then too.
Yet it's not entirely without precedent. The Doctor Who novel line, for example, no longer publishes stories of previous Doctors, and their sales have gone through the roof.
 
Or you can't have your cake and eat it.


This is just my observation, but I think one of the aims of the movie was to establish nu-Trek as a parallel continuity, with the original continuity continuing to exist. In fact there is a line in the film to that effect.

If the aim of that was as some sort of placation to fans of the original continuity, it worked, as I'm sure that Trek fans understand that.

If however, the aim was to sell the two continuity approach to the general public, to entice new readers to the existing literature as well as the literature that may grow up around the new film, then it has failed.

This is just my opinion, based on the comments I have read on IMDB, and a couple of other places, but it seems that the layman believes that the new film erases the original stories, I keep seeing comment after comment to that effect, saying that Trek XI has made TOS, TNG, and all the rest vanish.

I think when the layman walks into a bookshop and sees new Trek Lit being published in the original continuity, he's just going to be confused.

I must agree here. The whole thing has become very confusing.
 
I don't get it. If the release of the movie is too dangerous a time for Pocket to put some books on the shelves, doesn't that suggest that there's never a safe time and this book line that is impossible to sustain?
That isn't what I said. what I said was that the release of the movie was a risky time to do books similar to ones that have failed in the past.


All these comments about "this tanked" and "that tanked" just point towards the conclusion that Star Trek books are not and will not be profitable any time soon.
Only if you didn't actually read the comments. The things I referred to that tanked were Watchmen tie-ins and reprints of older Trek books. Nonfiction books have also done poorly lately. The new Star Trek novels are doing just fine, so your conclusion is faulty.


is certainly not available to us debating yutzes on the Internet.
I have nothing in particular to say here, but I just approve of the use of the word "yutz" wherever possible.


Isn't the situation about the 40 year anniversary a bit different than this year's release of a new movie? I mean, 2006 the only recent thing on TV was the mediocre Enterprise, Star Trek's decline was never more obvious. So I'd guess that also translates into poor sales.
Yes, but while that's how rational intelligent people think, it's not how bookstores think. With bookstores, the previous sales are all. Plus, all bookstores are ordering conservatively right now.

So much of the problems here are traceable to the shite economy.... *sigh*


Yet it's not entirely without precedent. The Doctor Who novel line, for example, no longer publishes stories of previous Doctors, and their sales have gone through the roof.
You're implying a backwards cause and effect there. BBC Books stopped publishing past Doctor books because the sales of current Doctor books were several orders of magnitude higher than those of past Doctor books, and then they dropped the past Doctors. It was the through the roof part that came first.
 
Yet it's not entirely without precedent. The Doctor Who novel line, for example, no longer publishes stories of previous Doctors, and their sales have gone through the roof.
You're implying a backwards cause and effect there. BBC Books stopped publishing past Doctor books because the sales of current Doctor books were several orders of magnitude higher than those of past Doctor books, and then they dropped the past Doctors. It was the through the roof part that came first.

The difference in sales has nothing to do with the nature of the books and everything to do with a) getting a much better distribution deal, b) there being a new series to remind people it exists, and c) them actually advertising the bloody things now.

But of course, now they know NSAs sell better than EDAs/PDAs did, they don't care why, they just go "right we'll stick to them, then."
 
Isn't the situation about the 40 year anniversary a bit different than this year's release of a new movie?

Generally, "40" isn't exactly a major celebration as "50" or "100" would be.

If you start doing anniversary celebrations every five years, it'll get old and relatively meaningless around "30".

A lot of these anniversaries are observed because many of the original participants are aging and might not be around for the next five or ten-year anniversary.

Wait a minute ... what the hell were we talking about? ;)

--Ted
 
All my Star Trek books disappeared when Trek XI came out. My bookshelf collapsed when the time rift came through.
 
Generally, "40" isn't exactly a major celebration as "50" or "100" would be.

If you start doing anniversary celebrations every five years, it'll get old and relatively meaningless around "30".

I feel like this. When Pocket started doing year-ofs for various ten, twenty and forty-year anniversaries, I just couldn't bring myself to care. I wonder now, although I don't think the new film was much more than rumour at that point, whether it was shooting oneself in the foot re-releasing the back catalogue to celebrate a low-profile non-event and yielding poor sales, when doing so now might have been more successful but can't go through because of those poor sales. Hindsight 20/20 and all that, I guess.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
BBC Books stopped publishing past Doctor books because the sales of current Doctor books were several orders of magnitude higher than those of past Doctor books, and then they dropped the past Doctors. It was the through the roof part that came first.

I'm curious, by how much is Star Trek novelization outselling other ST books?
 
Only if you didn't actually read the comments. The things I referred to that tanked were Watchmen tie-ins and reprints of older Trek books. Nonfiction books have also done poorly lately. The new Star Trek novels are doing just fine, so your conclusion is faulty.

But you were also referring to the Strange New Worlds series (neither reprint, Watchmen, nor nonfiction)

Also, to me, the term "tanked" seems a more definite measure of sales performance than the terms "stable" and "just fine". I guess I'm wondering how much more the novels sell in relation to the "tanked" projects.
 
Only if you didn't actually read the comments. The things I referred to that tanked were Watchmen tie-ins and reprints of older Trek books. Nonfiction books have also done poorly lately. The new Star Trek novels are doing just fine, so your conclusion is faulty.

But you were also referring to the Strange New Worlds series (neither reprint, Watchmen, nor nonfiction)

Also, to me, the term "tanked" seems a more definite measure of sales performance than the terms "stable" and "just fine". I guess I'm wondering how much more the novels sell in relation to the "tanked" projects.

Pocket is never going to tell us what sales numbers are, but the editors and authors have made it clear numerous times that the novels as a whole are selling just fine and are profitable. Certainly the fact that Pocket has been able to sustain publishing all sorts of non-TV-based novels, from the Vanguard series to Titan to Klingon Empire/I.K.S. Gorkon to the various Relaunches to the Lost Era novels to the Terok Nor series, etc, would seem to indicate that the publishing line is doing very well if they're able to support novels not directly based on any series.
 
the term "tanked" seems a more definite measure of sales performance than the terms "stable" and "just fine". I guess I'm wondering how much more the novels sell in relation to the "tanked" projects.

Publishers like to be able to predict sales well. If they make 5000 copies and sell all 5000 copies, that's great. For another book, they might make 10000 copies but sell only 5000. That's bad, because now they have to spend a considerable amount of money warehousing them - or pulping them. Even though both books sold 5000 copies, one is a hit and the other tanked.

We know that a few ST titles, such as "Titan" #1 and "New Frontier: Stone and Anvil", IIRC, went to second printings before they were even published, because pre-sales outnumbered their anticipated initial print-runs. So, the print run for Titan #2 was probably much bigger than #1, to save on having to go to reprint.

With "Mission Gamma", Book #1 sold so well the next three volumes had their print runs increased. But Book #1 was a very big MMPB - much chunkier than normal and they'd tried to keep the price down the first time - so when shops tried to order more #1, it was suddenly "out of print" - and the second hand market prices went through the roof. (Until the long-awaited MG omnibus volume came out, that is. But that didn't sell enough, so the second hand market prices of now-OOP Books #3 and 4 have gone through the roof.)

It must drive publishers crazy. Publishers must love completists like me.
 
Certainly the fact that Pocket has been able to sustain publishing all sorts of non-TV-based novels, from the Vanguard series to Titan to Klingon Empire/I.K.S. Gorkon to the various Relaunches to the Lost Era novels to the Terok Nor series, etc, would seem to indicate that the publishing line is doing very well if they're able to support novels not directly based on any series.

However, the main guy responsible for all those series you mention got fired six months ago, so I don't think they were doing very well. Decent - perhaps, well - maybe, but if they were doing very well I highly doubt there would be any lay-offs involved.
 
However, the main guy responsible for all those series you mention got fired six months ago, so I don't think they were doing very well. Decent - perhaps, well - maybe, but if they were doing very well I highly doubt there would be any lay-offs involved.

According to other Pocket staff, the firing of Marco had more to do with his senior position and much higher salary. Star Trek was only a part of his total workload, and Star Trek is only one aspect of Simon & Schuster's publishing output.
 
However, the main guy responsible for all those series you mention got fired six months ago, so I don't think they were doing very well. Decent - perhaps, well - maybe, but if they were doing very well I highly doubt there would be any lay-offs involved.

There's no connection. Remember, Simon & Schuster is a large corporation that does a great deal of things besides publishing Star Trek novels. Also remember that we had a worldwide economic catastrophe at that time. That crisis cost the corporation a lot of money, and they had to cut costs by reducing their staff. Marco Palmieri was just one of dozens of people Simon & Schuster laid off in their efforts to stave off bankruptcy. He was the highest-paid editor in Pocket's media tie-in division (because he did the most work), and therefore the bean counters decided that they would save the most money by laying him off. It had nothing remotely to do with the sales of Trek fiction (which was only one of the book lines Marco was responsible for). Basically, Marco got laid off because he did his job too well, and got paid for it commensurately.
 
But you were also referring to the Strange New Worlds series (neither reprint, Watchmen, nor nonfiction)
Huh? When did I ever mention SNW? :confused:

And SNW was actually very successful -- it lasted ten years which, honestly, was about seven years longer than I expected it to last. By the time it was done, it was losing money, but for an anthology that has neither of the two hooks that make anthologies work (a theme and/or big names in the table of contents), that's a remarkable success.


Also, to me, the term "tanked" seems a more definite measure of sales performance than the terms "stable" and "just fine". I guess I'm wondering how much more the novels sell in relation to the "tanked" projects.
Simple -- they're still doing novels. They wouldn't if they weren't selling. Reprints of older titles have not done well, whether it was the Signature editions, the DS9 post-finale omnibuses, or the 40th anniversary cheapie reprints. That's what I was talking about when reprinting old titles was suggested as a possible movie tie-in, and I was explaining why Pocket would've been reluctant to do them, after being burned on them three times recently.


However, the main guy responsible for all those series you mention got fired six months ago, so I don't think they were doing very well. Decent - perhaps, well - maybe, but if they were doing very well I highly doubt there would be any lay-offs involved.
You can doubt that all you want, but you'd be completely wrong.

Marco's layoff had precisely nothing to do with Star Trek -- or indeed, any of the many projects he was involved with (Trek was only part of his workday). Marco's layoff came on a day when 35 employees of Simon & Schuster from all across the company (editorial, production, publicity, marketing, the computer department, you name it) were laid off for financial reasons. You may not have noticed, but the U.S. economy is in something of a shambles right now (and was even more so in December 2008). The layoffs happened because S&S was trying to save money in a shite economy. The actual amount of work that needed to be done did not change, they just distributed it among the other four editors left in the department, with Margaret Clark taking on all the Trek instead of the 40% of it she was previously responsible for.
 
I personally hope the relaunch novels never stop, they are awesome. I'd go so far as to say that I consider Trek Lit to be THE place for innovative Star Trek stories- much moreso than the film (which I liked but can't compare to the relaunch).
 
I would echo the post above. The current line of books, from around the year 2000 on, have been fantastic. One of the gripes I had with the new film was the fact that Romulus is destroyed. Now, the fascinating Romulan Star Empire- Imperial Romulan State- Watraii- Reman colonies- Tal'aura- Donatra- Vulcan- Typhon Pact web is going to have to be cleaved to pieces when Romulus gratitiously explodes in order to give Nero something to be villainous over.
 
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