Delta Vega

[IDIC]

The only way Spock could have visibly seen the destruction of Vulcan as depicted in the mind mild would be if he was on either T'Kuht(Vulcan's sister planet) or T'Kuht's moon. That is the only way.

There are ways to explain the name difference. Perhaps, the Vulcans decided to try to terraform T'Kuht which is/was class G and it was unsuccessful.

As far as I am concerned, I think Spock and the Narada traveled not only into the past but a parallel universe that was similar to their own but did have some differences to begin with.

Also, it's mostly the explosion of Vulcan that we saw which was powered by a black hole. I'm pretty sure we would see such afflicting Mars or even Jupiter from earth.

With a telescope, yes but not with the naked eye and as visible as what Spock witnessed. Venus and Mars look like bright stars in the sky to the naked eye not planets.


If Spock was not on the planet or moon listed above then Spock didnt see it occur. He would have felt it though as that many Vulcans dying at once should have made any Vulcan collapse e.g. when the starship Intrepid an all-Vulcan starship exploded, Spock sensed the crew of 400 Vulcans die.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Maybe it's called Deltavegah and it's a vulcan name meaning "the moon that wasn't there".

 

[Praetor]

My problem isn't with the location of the planet, it's with the botched naming. A Greek derived name for a planet right next to an inhabited world? Not a huge deal, I can come up with pretzel shaped rationales for it, but I do kind of want to ask Orci and Kurtzman, "Dude, the next time you try to do something nice for the fans, do it without 'moving the furniture.'"

Agreed. "All power to the engines."

Who was it that called it "Delta Vega Vulcanis" upthread?

 

[Ovation]

The only way Spock could have visibly seen the destruction of Vulcan as depicted in the mind mild would be if he was on either T'Kuht(Vulcan's sister planet) or T'Kuht's moon. That is the only way.

OR the visual representation we saw was Kirk's mind attempting to make sense of the sensory overload that Spock experienced (on a larger scale than when the USS Intrepid was destroyed by the giant amoeba). Filmmakers do, on occasion, leave things deliberately vague (in terms of explanations for what we see)--watch an Agnes Varda film (Le Bonheur is a fine example--I just watched it last night, so the example is fresh in my mind). Not everything has to have an ironclad explanation, does it?

 

[Praetor]

I think the mind meld was just a stylized montage. Perhaps it could have been more stylized to make this more clear. But then, if Delta Vega isn't relatively close to Vulcan, why would Nero ditch Spock there or Spock ditch Kirk there?

 

[All Seeing Eye]

For people who want to have a dabble at seeing how a star system could work go here and knock yourself out.

 

[Peter the Younger]

For people who want to have a dabble at seeing how a star system could work go here and knock yourself out.

Well, there goes my productivity for the day. Again.

 

[TrekGuide.com]

Delta Vega is not in the Vega system in the Trekverse. The Delta Vega in WNMHGB is at the edge of the Galaxy. Vega in "The Cage" and in ENT is close to Earth.

ENT established that Vulcan is 16 light years from Earth (Not unlike 40 Eridani) The Vega system is 25 light years from Earth.

You are right; it is mentioned in both "Daedalus" and "Home" (both from Season 4 of "Enterprise") that Vulcan is about 16 light-years from Earth.

While Vega is a specific star in real life (Alpha Lyrae), it is used a number of times in "Trek" as a generic alien-sounding planet, much like Rigel (Beta Orionis).

"Vega Colony" is mentioned in "Twilight," "The Menagerie," and "Future Tense."

Delta Vega is mentioned in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and "Star Trek XI."

Also, colonists on Vega Nine are mentioned in "Mirror, Mirror," and Archer meets a couple from Vega Reticuli while on Risa in "Two Days and Two Nights."

Don't even get me started on all the planets named Rigel. ...

I guess the writers of this movie were in keeping with canon by using the name of a real star for a completely bogus planet.

It's also been generally agreed that Vulcan and Delta Vega are NOT in the same solar system, and Spock's seeing the destruction was symbolic, not literal. It was part of the mind-meld as he relayed information to Kirk.

Wait it was symbolic? Not literal? He was standing there, looking up, for God's sake...

I mean, Spock Prime says "Jim, I have just watched my planet's destruction" (paraphrasing, again)

I dont understand how that was symbolic, but I'm sure you'll enlighten me.. hopefully??

No, the scene clearly showed Spock looking into the sky, as the camera pointed over his shoulder, showing both Spock and the imploding Vulcan in the same shot. (If that scene were "subjective" or "symbolic," then Spock would not be visualizing his own back; he'd be seeing it from his own eyes.)

The size of Vulcan seen in the sky of Delta Vega is in line with the size of the planet seen in Vulcan's sky in "Star Trek: The Motion Picture." There's no reason to believe the two planets are not literally within visual range of each other.

Also, the fact that Kirk was ejected in an escape pod while the Enterprise was leaving Vulcan's orbit, and landed a few minutes later on Delta Vega, is pretty conclusive evidence that the two planets are very close.

One other thing to think about: No one in the movie actually said "We are on Delta Vega." Neither Spock nor Scotty says, "Welcome to Delta Vega."

The only mention of "Delta Vega" is the computer in the life pod, and Kirk took that to be fact, and says, "OK, I'm on Delta Vega." But maybe the escape pod computer was damaged in the battle with Nero, and Kirk never bothered to double-check the name of the planet. Maybe Scotty and Spock both knew the correct name of the planet, but Kirk never bothered to ask.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

The only mention of "Delta Vega" is the computer in the life pod, and Kirk took that to be fact, and says, "OK, I'm on Delta Vega." But maybe the escape pod computer was damaged in the battle with Nero, and Kirk never bothered to double-check the name of the planet. Maybe Scotty and Spock both knew the correct name of the planet, but Kirk never bothered to ask.

I like to think that perhaps the name sounded like Delta Vega but it wasn't actually what the computer said. It was Dalta Vrega.

 

[Ovation]

It's also been generally agreed that Vulcan and Delta Vega are NOT in the same solar system, and Spock's seeing the destruction was symbolic, not literal. It was part of the mind-meld as he relayed information to Kirk.

Wait it was symbolic? Not literal? He was standing there, looking up, for God's sake...

I mean, Spock Prime says "Jim, I have just watched my planet's destruction" (paraphrasing, again)

I dont understand how that was symbolic, but I'm sure you'll enlighten me.. hopefully??

No, the scene clearly showed Spock looking into the sky, as the camera pointed over his shoulder, showing both Spock and the imploding Vulcan in the same shot. (If that scene were "subjective" or "symbolic," then Spock would not be visualizing his own back; he'd be seeing it from his own eyes.)

Not necessarily. I find your time-travel explanations more rational and well thought out than any other I've encountered here (I even reference them from time to time--saves me a lot of work, thanks ) and I agree with much of what you post. But I don't agree that it cannot be "symbolic" because of the nature of the visuals. The 'mind meld' has no hard, fast rules in Trek (that I recall) in terms of visualizing the internal, as opposed to external, experience. Sometimes they are presented as memories, sometimes only aurally--whatever suits the story. If Kirk's mind is attempting to "make sense" of the information he's receiving, it stands to reason that he could interpret the visuals from his own perspective and "see" what he would expect to see--Spock from his own perspective rather than from Spock's. That would accommodate a "symbolic" representation and remain consistent with the imagery we saw.

Obviously this is just my interpretation (and the beauty of fiction is we are free, to a point, to interpret--especially when nothing specific has contradicted our view). I raise it not to say "I'm right" but rather to point out that, given the very subjective and nebulous procedure that is the "mind meld", we cannot know, from the images, for certain that it is not "symbolic". (unlike, for example, the certainty that the "prime timeline" continues to exist--Spock's presence is proof of that)

 

[Praetor]

I guess the writers of this movie were in keeping with canon by using the name of a real star for a completely bogus planet.

There we go.

I like to think that perhaps the name sounded like Delta Vega but it wasn't actually what the computer said. It was Dalta Vrega.

Or D'ellta-Vuega?

 

[TrekGuide.com]

The 'mind meld' has no hard, fast rules in Trek (that I recall) in terms of visualizing the internal, as opposed to external, experience. Sometimes they are presented as memories, sometimes only aurally--whatever suits the story. If Kirk's mind is attempting to "make sense" of the information he's receiving, it stands to reason that he could interpret the visuals from his own perspective and "see" what he would expect to see--Spock from his own perspective rather than from Spock's.

Well, regardless of the camera angles during the mind-meld, we do know that Kirk was ejected in an escape pod just as the Enterprise was breaking orbit from Vulcan and preparing to go to warp.

The fact that he landed on the ice planet a few minutes later, obviously on the side of the planet that would be closest to Vulcan, just a few miles away from where Spock was marooned, seems to indicate that their meeting was not a monumental coincidence across the millions of square miles of snow on some random planet in the Galaxy.

Both Kirk and Spock were marooned on the closest planet to Vulcan, on the side of the planet facing Vulcan at the time.

I see no reason to believe the shot of Spock watching Vulcan implode is not literal, unless you actually believe this planet is the same Delta Vega near the Great Barrier on the edge of the Galaxy in "Where No Man Has Gone Before." But that would make no sense in this story. Why would Spock fly to the edge of the Galaxy to maroon Kirk on a remote planet?

No, I think it's clear from the story that this was the closest neighboring planet to Vulcan, perhaps the same planet we've seen in Vulcan's sky in "The Motion Picture." Other than the name given by the escape pod computer, there's no reason to believe they were on the edge of the Galaxy on some remote planet. There would be no time for either Nero nor the Enterprise to travel that far just to maroon somebody.

 

[Ovation]

The 'mind meld' has no hard, fast rules in Trek (that I recall) in terms of visualizing the internal, as opposed to external, experience. Sometimes they are presented as memories, sometimes only aurally--whatever suits the story. If Kirk's mind is attempting to "make sense" of the information he's receiving, it stands to reason that he could interpret the visuals from his own perspective and "see" what he would expect to see--Spock from his own perspective rather than from Spock's.

Well, regardless of the camera angles during the mind-meld, we do know that Kirk was ejected in an escape pod just as the Enterprise was breaking orbit from Vulcan and preparing to go to warp.

The fact that he landed on the ice planet a few minutes later, obviously on the side of the planet that would be closest to Vulcan, just a few miles away from where Spock was marooned, seems to indicate that their meeting was not a monumental coincidence across the millions of square miles of snow on some random planet in the Galaxy.

Both Kirk and Spock were marooned on the closest planet to Vulcan, on the side of the planet facing Vulcan at the time.

I see no reason to believe the shot of Spock watching Vulcan implode is not literal, unless you actually believe this planet is the same Delta Vega near the Great Barrier on the edge of the Galaxy in "Where No Man Has Gone Before." But that would make no sense in this story. Why would Spock fly to the edge of the Galaxy to maroon Kirk on a remote planet?

No, I think it's clear from the story that this was the closest neighboring planet to Vulcan, perhaps the same planet we've seen in Vulcan's sky in "The Motion Picture." Other than the name given by the escape pod computer, there's no reason to believe they were on the edge of the Galaxy on some remote planet. There would be no time for either Nero nor the Enterprise to travel that far just to maroon somebody.

I'm not saying it was the other Delta Vega. I was simply passing on what the writers themselves (well, Orci at any rate--you can find it at Trekmovie.com) said--that it was intended as (his words) "cinematic" and "impressionistic". With that in mind, I was trying to account for the angle we see of Spock given the nebulous nature of the meld. I'm not saying it could not have been literal but rather that the authors did not intend it as a literal image. I suppose you could send Orci a message and discuss it further. He's apparently keen to exchange with the fans.

In any event, when I saw it, I presumed it was "symbolic" simply because I did not think such an event would be that visible, at that size, from anywhere else in the planetary system (I recalled Spock's line "Vulcan has no moon, Miss Uhura" or some such thing but I did not recall, at the cinema, the original cut of TMP which shows a moon. The DC does NOT show a moon or large planetary body in the sky of Vulcan and that is the version I have seen most frequently and recently).

Generally, when it comes to fiction, if an author expresses an intention, I accept it (unless it seems entirely unlikely, if not impossible). If an author does not express an intention, then I feel free to interpret it for myself--as I would any work of art without the benefit of knowing the creator's intentions. In this case, my interpretation happened to coincide with the author's intentions. However, I can see where different interpretations, absent knowledge of those intentions, might seem equally compelling.

Incidentally, Orci has also stated that they used the name Delta Vega because they felt like throwing a bone to the fans and they did so knowing full well it was not the same planet as the original.

 

[Peter the Younger]

The only mention of "Delta Vega" is the computer in the life pod, and Kirk took that to be fact, and says, "OK, I'm on Delta Vega." But maybe the escape pod computer was damaged in the battle with Nero, and Kirk never bothered to double-check the name of the planet. Maybe Scotty and Spock both knew the correct name of the planet, but Kirk never bothered to ask.

Wait a second. All these convoluted explanations we've been coming up with, and we could have just chalked it up to a wonky computer? Now that's good thinkin'!

TrekGuide, you have earned your monicker today.

Incidentally, Orci has also stated that they used the name Delta Vega because they felt like throwing a bone to the fans and they did so knowing full well it was not the same planet as the original.

True, but number one, it's a chicken bone, and we're choking on the splinters (never feed your dogs chicken bones people), and second, it seems pretty clear Orci doesn't care much one way or the other. So I vote for the wonky computer.

 

[TrekGuide.com]

... at the cinema, the original cut of TMP which shows a moon. The DC does NOT show a moon or large planetary body in the sky of Vulcan and that is the version I have seen most frequently and recently).

Canon violation! Robert Wise has raped my childhood!

 

[Praetor]

An interesting question: which is technically canon?

 

[Shim]

Question re Delta Vega not connected to its proximity to Vulcan/anywhere else in the galaxy...

I hear constant references to it being an "ice planet". Yes, it looked cold and icy, but was theire any mention of the fact that the whole planet was under permanent ice?

No one who landed in Antarctica would consider Earth to be an "ice planet". Is it at all possible that they were in the polar regions of Delta Vega? This for me would go a long way in explaining how and why a creature that appeared to be cold-blooded might survive, ie. it had strayed from its natural environment...

 

[Nerys Myk]

An interesting question: which is technically canon?

Both

 

[Islander]

Question re Delta Vega not connected to its proximity to Vulcan/anywhere else in the galaxy...

I hear constant references to it being an "ice planet". Yes, it looked cold and icy, but was theire any mention of the fact that the whole planet was under permanent ice?

No one who landed in Antarctica would consider Earth to be an "ice planet". Is it at all possible that they were in the polar regions of Delta Vega? This for me would go a long way in explaining how and why a creature that appeared to be cold-blooded might survive, ie. it had strayed from its natural environment...

But why would Starfleet put an outpost there? If the planet has more accomodating echo systems, they would have put their base there. And before anybody says it might be required for something that is there that they need: it is an outpost, not a mining station.

 

[Praetor]

An interesting question: which is technically canon?

Both

Hurm. So Vulcan still has a neighboring planet that wasn't viewable "in the day" perhaps?