Delta Vega

[TheMurph]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

I understand they wanted to use a planet which had resonance for us fans, but it was jarring and I don't like it!

Delta Vega IS NOT in the Vulcan system.

Calm down, more than one Delta Vega. It's all to the good.

 

[ChristopherPike]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

I suppose it's no more a mistake, than Soran launching a missile into the Veridian star. In reality, he and Picard would've had to break out the tea and biscuits, taking time out for 8 whole minutes before the sky went dark.

 

[Kruge]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

I'm a pharmacist, not a physicist, dammit! but out of curiosity...

Would Vulcan's sudden dissapearance screw up the orbits of the rest of the planets in the system? Would one of them be pulled into Vulcans old orbit and thereby occupy it's "habitable zone"?

 

[superdeluxe]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

Delta Vega IS NOT in the Vulcan system.

Now it is

 

[Jeri]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

I'm a pharmacist, not a physicist, dammit! but out of curiosity...

Would Vulcan's sudden dissapearance screw up the orbits of the rest of the planets in the system? Would one of them be pulled into Vulcans old orbit and thereby occupy it's "habitable zone"?

(Not a physicist either.) Their orbits would be screwed up. A good example is Kahn and their planet.

That episode in ENT -- "Rogue Planet": they described a hilarious situation for a dark, solitary body in the middle of nowhere -- that it had geothermal energy. You're not going to get that where there are no gravitational forces pulling on it. It would be a cold, dark rock in no time.

 

[Kruge]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

I'm a pharmacist, not a physicist, dammit! but out of curiosity...

Would Vulcan's sudden dissapearance screw up the orbits of the rest of the planets in the system? Would one of them be pulled into Vulcans old orbit and thereby occupy it's "habitable zone"?

Their orbits would be screwed up. A good example is Kahn and their planet.

That episode in ENT -- "Rogue Planet": they described a hilarious situation for a dark, solitary body in the middle of nowhere -- that it had geothermal energy. You're not going to get that where there are no gravitational forces pulling on it. It would be a cold, dark rock in no time.

Fascinating...so the entire Vulcan system may be inhostpitable to life...

OR...

Perhaps, as I said, another planet is pulled into Eridani's orbit, right in the habitable zone...maybe after time as passed, the Vulcans can leave whatever colony Spock Prime found, and return to their old system...

Or not

I know I should be doing homework or SOMETHING right now...oh well..

 

[Jeri]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

Kruge, you are a terrible wastrel. At least I'm retired.

 

[Kruge]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

Guilty as charged...

Ahh "retirement"...I'm afraid that by 2050, when its my turn, that term will be relegated to the history books

oh well!

 

[TrekGuide.com]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

Would Vulcan's sudden dissapearance screw up the orbits of the rest of the planets in the system? Would one of them be pulled into Vulcans old orbit and thereby occupy it's "habitable zone"?

That only happens in the Ceti Alpha system.

Delta Vega IS NOT in the Vulcan system.

Says who? It's never been established what star system Vulcan is in. If I'm wrong, then give me the episode title, and I'll go watch it again.

I believe Vega is the name of a specific star (aka, Alpha Lyrae), one of the brightest and closest stars to Earth.

There is only one Vega in the Galaxy, and one might infer that icy Delta Vega would be the fourth planet from it. The third planet from Vega would be considerably warmer. It's inhabitants, technically called Vegans, might be averse to eating meat.

I know a lot of fanon fans may have a problem with it, because their favorite book says otherwise, but I don't see any canon reason why Vulcan couldn't be Gamma Vega.

 

[Maxillius]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

ok, now why would the orbits be shifted again? I superdense pebble with the mass of Vulcan would have the same effect as the normal-sized Vulcan did.

However, if red matter rips holes in subspace and drags regular matter though, then yes, the destruction of Vulcan would have repercussions. More than likely though, Delta Vega would become less hospitable rather than more.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

Would Vulcan's sudden dissapearance screw up the orbits of the rest of the planets in the system? Would one of them be pulled into Vulcans old orbit and thereby occupy it's "habitable zone"?

That only happens in the Ceti Alpha system.

Delta Vega IS NOT in the Vulcan system.

Says who? It's never been established what star system Vulcan is in. If I'm wrong, then give me the episode title, and I'll go watch it again.

I believe Vega is the name of a specific star (aka, Alpha Lyrae), one of the brightest and closest stars to Earth.

There is only one Vega in the Galaxy, and one might infer that icy Delta Vega would be the fourth planet from it. The third planet from Vega would be considerably warmer. It's inhabitants, technically called Vegans, might be averse to eating meat.

I know a lot of fanon fans may have a problem with it, because their favorite book says otherwise, but I don't see any canon reason why Vulcan couldn't be Gamma Vega.

Delta Vega is not in the Vega system in the Trekverse. The Delta Vega in WNMHGB is at the edge of the Galaxy. Vega in "The Cage" and in ENT is close to Earth.

ENT established that Vulcan is 16 light years from Earth (Not unlike 40 Eridani) The Vega system is 25 light years from Earth.

 

[IDIC]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

Perhaps, as I said, another planet is pulled into Eridani's orbit, right in the habitable zone...maybe after time as passed, the Vulcans can leave whatever colony Spock Prime found, and return to their old system...

Well, there is the blackhole where Vulcan once was. Not sure how long it will take for that to evaporate. I know that the smaller the surface area of its event horizon the faster it should evaporate. But it should be pointed out that the mass of Vulcan and its gravitational field hasnt been destroyed. As far as Vulcan's twin planet, T'Khul, is concerned Vulcan is still there in terms of its gravitational attraction. T'Khul should feel no affects so long as the event horizon of the black hole doesnt come into contact with it or its moon. I am guessing T'Khul is what the writers called Delta Vega since Spock is able to see Vulcan destroyed.

 

[gastrof]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

Don't over simplify.

Earth has areas with the same climate as both examples of Delta Vega.

A planet doesn't have to have just ONE type of environment.

The lithium cracking station seen in WNMHGB was on one part of the planet, Scotty's exile station was on another, likely at one of the poles.

It's also been generally agreed that Vulcan and Delta Vega are NOT in the same solar system, and Spock's seeing the destruction was symbolic, not literal. It was part of the mind-meld as he relayed information to Kirk.

Let's face it, it'd be hard for two planetary bodies that both were class M to sit that close in space to each other. If Earth's seas are affected by something the size of the moon being near us, what do you think would happen to two Earth-type planets being as close to each other as Vulcan and Delta Vega seemed to be in the meld image?

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

Let's face it, it'd be hard for two planetary bodies that both were class M to sit that close in space to each other. If Earth's seas are affected by something the size of the moon being near us, what do you think would happen to two Earth-type planets being as close to each other as Vulcan and Delta Vega seemed to be in the meld image?

The gravity on Vulcan is much greater than Earth so Vulcan must therefore be larger in size than Earth and would therefore look larger in the sky to a neighbouring body then the Moon looks to Earth. In other words a planet could pass by close to Vulcan but be at a greater distance to Vulcan then the Moon is to the Earth and still allow for such a large view of Vulcan in it's sky.

So imagine Vulcan is larger than Earth, now imagine Delta Vega 5 is slightly smaller than Earth, now imagine it's further away from Vulcan than the Moon is to Earth. The distances would allow a very limited gravitational pull on eachother and still allow for Vulcan to look as large as it did in the sky of Delta Vega 5.

There is no doubt in my mind that Delta Vega 5 is a neighbouring planet to Vulcan. Their close proximity also explains why although a harsh environment Delta Vega 5 was habitable.

 

[Kruge]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

Don't over simplify.

Earth has areas with the same climate as both examples of Delta Vega.

A planet doesn't have to have just ONE type of environment.

The lithium cracking station seen in WNMHGB was on one part of the planet, Scotty's exile station was on another, likely at one of the poles.

It's also been generally agreed that Vulcan and Delta Vega are NOT in the same solar system, and Spock's seeing the destruction was symbolic, not literal. It was part of the mind-meld as he relayed information to Kirk.

Let's face it, it'd be hard for two planetary bodies that both were class M to sit that close in space to each other. If Earth's seas are affected by something the size of the moon being near us, what do you think would happen to two Earth-type planets being as close to each other as Vulcan and Delta Vega seemed to be in the meld image?

Wait it was symbolic? Not literal? He was standing there, looking up, for God's sake...

I thought the whole point of the mind meld was to show Kirk what Spock had seen thus far, and to prove to him that he is indeed Spock..

You probably know something about this that I don't, but for it to have been "symbolic" makes Nero's efforts fruitless...the whole point of not killing Spock Prime on the spot was to dump him somewhere close to Vulcan so he could see it implode...he also told Alternate Spock that "I want you to see something" (paraphrasing), meaning that he wanted both Spocks to be within visual range of Vulcan's destruction

I mean, Spock Prime says "Jim, I have just watched my planet's destruction" (paraphrasing, again)

I dont understand how that was symbolic, but I'm sure you'll enlighten me.. hopefully??

 

[IDIC]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

Let's face it, it'd be hard for two planetary bodies that both were class M to sit that close in space to each other.

Delta Vega (or I think T'Khul) was not class M. It was class G.

 

[Ovation]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

Don't over simplify.

Earth has areas with the same climate as both examples of Delta Vega.

A planet doesn't have to have just ONE type of environment.

The lithium cracking station seen in WNMHGB was on one part of the planet, Scotty's exile station was on another, likely at one of the poles.

It's also been generally agreed that Vulcan and Delta Vega are NOT in the same solar system, and Spock's seeing the destruction was symbolic, not literal. It was part of the mind-meld as he relayed information to Kirk.

Let's face it, it'd be hard for two planetary bodies that both were class M to sit that close in space to each other. If Earth's seas are affected by something the size of the moon being near us, what do you think would happen to two Earth-type planets being as close to each other as Vulcan and Delta Vega seemed to be in the meld image?

Wait it was symbolic? Not literal? He was standing there, looking up, for God's sake...

I thought the whole point of the mind meld was to show Kirk what Spock had seen thus far, and to prove to him that he is indeed Spock..

You probably know something about this that I don't, but for it to have been "symbolic" makes Nero's efforts fruitless...the whole point of not killing Spock Prime on the spot was to dump him somewhere close to Vulcan so he could see it implode...he also told Alternate Spock that "I want you to see something" (paraphrasing), meaning that he wanted both Spocks to be within visual range of Vulcan's destruction

I mean, Spock Prime says "Jim, I have just watched my planet's destruction" (paraphrasing, again)

I dont understand how that was symbolic, but I'm sure you'll enlighten me.. hopefully??

Orci says in his Q and A session that the image was meant symbolically because it was more cinematic than showing Spock peering into a telescope. Given the distorted sound during the meld, as well as some of the distorted imagery, it is not unreasonable to conclude that some of what Kirk "saw" was symbolic rather than literal.

 

[Kruge]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

if you accept that 40 Eridani A is Vulcan's star system, then that means that Vulcan is .63 AU from A, because that's within the so-called "habitable zone"

However, the definition of a "habitable zone" is that liquid water would be able to exist on the surface...While I find it really unlikely that Vulcan is (was) completely devoid of surface water, it obviously doesn't have alot (compared to earth)...

Therefore, it's entirely possible that Vulcan is further away than ".63 AU"...it could be as far away as earth is from the sun, and therefore it's entirely possible that a neighboring planet/planetoid could pass by without much detrimental effect to Vulcan..or, as noted above, it could be what caused Vulcan's volcanism...maybe without that neighboring planetoid, Vulcan would be sitting pretty at the same distance as Earth and would be geodynamically more stable

Ugh...too much time on my hands...oh well

 

[flemm]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

Orci says in his Q and A session that the image was meant symbolically because it was more cinematic than showing Spock peering into a telescope. Given the distorted sound during the meld, as well as some of the distorted imagery, it is not unreasonable to conclude that some of what Kirk "saw" was symbolic rather than literal.

Sure, and in fact that's what we have to conclude because it would be impossible for anything other than a moon to be that close to Vulcan, and Delta Vega is not presented as a moon in the film (though I suppose that the original thought was for it to be a moon in orbit around Vulcan, as the quote from the writers posted above seems to suggest).

While the scene could be read as symbolic, neither the script nor the cinematography do a good job of presenting the scene as symbolic. It does come across as quite literal. The viewer has to surmise that, while the scene does not seem distorted, the mindmeld is in fact distorting the image, showing how close Spock was emotionally to Vulcan, rather than literally.

All of this is somewhat beside the point, though. The more the writers have to step in and explain what they were thinking, the more we can be sure that there are plot elements that are insufficiently clear within the film itself.

Weak plot, great everything else. That has pretty much been my opinion of the movie from the beginning.

 

[Kruge]

Re: Will the real Delta Vega step forward

Orci says in his Q and A session that the image was meant symbolically because it was more cinematic than showing Spock peering into a telescope. Given the distorted sound during the meld, as well as some of the distorted imagery, it is not unreasonable to conclude that some of what Kirk "saw" was symbolic rather than literal.

Sure, and in fact that's what we have to conclude because it would be impossible for anything other than a moon to be that close to Vulcan, and Delta Vega is not presented as a moon in the film (though I suppose that the original thought was for it to be a moon in orbit around Vulcan, as the quote from the writers posted above seems to suggest).

While the scene could be read as symbolic, neither the script nor the cinematography do a good job of presenting the scene as symbolic. It does come across as quite literal. The viewer has to surmise that, while the scene does not seem distorted, the mindmeld is in fact distorting the image, showing how close Spock was emotionally to Vulcan, rather than literally.

All of this is somewhat beside the point, though. The more the writers have to step in and explain what they were thinking, the more we can be sure that there are plot elements that are insufficiently clear within the film itself.

Weak plot, great everything else. That has pretty much been my opinion of the movie from the beginning.

Wasn' there some massive planet/planetoid/moon shown very close to Vulcan in TMP? Was that retconned in some way?