Kirk's jump in rank makes sense

[zambingo]

I get what you and others are saying, I can even concede your point that previous acts of heroism have not awarded promotions (or at least promotions that have been accepted by the characters on screen). I just don't believe that your POV has to be the way it is in this fictional universe. This is an alternate universe and time line, but at the same time we can see somethings remain the same. People with your viewpoint have already conceded that it is likely cadets go on starship assignments prior to graduation.

And? Alright, cadets go on cruises. In which case all cadets go on cruises. In which case everyone who graduated SFA should've had roughly the same amount of experience that Kirk has, or perhaps more, since his three yeares is presented as being rather extraordinary. That still doesn't make his promotion make sense, because from the birth of the Federation until at least Riker's time on the Enterprse D, the original Kirk had set the record for becoming captain. And that record was several years between graduation and promotion to captain. If SFA provides so much experience that it'd be reasonable for people to go right from graduation to the centre seat, even if it was just once in a generation, then it should've already happened by the time Kirk was made captain, and it definitely should've happened by the time Riker was getting his little talking-to from Shelby.

The problem with this is not only that it's absurd on the face of it, but any and all explanations offered fall short of explaining why nobody else, ever, in the history of Starfleet, has managed to do the same thing.

Just because all cadets go on training assignments does not mean that all cadets do something that merits further promotion beyond the graduating rank of Ensign.

 

[Islander]

You can't gain a promotion until you have rank. Cadet is not a rank. You don't get rank until you graduate - when you become an Ensign. You don't have rank when you're in training. That's why they call you cadet. Because you don't have rank. It's the equivalent of calling an enlisted person who is in training a recruit. When you don't have rank, you can't get promoted. It's impossible.

Take it from someone who's spent a decade in the military. Trust me on this. I know what I'm talking about.

I did not suggest otherwise.

I showed that when Uhura graduated she was a Lieutenant and that the novelization states Kirk was supposed to be too. This means upon graduating these cadets, now ensigns, were due and thus received an immediate promotion thanks to merits already earned while as cadets.

Plausible only if their time in grade as Ensigns, which must be served in order to be eligible for promotion, ie. one year or so, where for some reason wavered.

You're quoting regulations which obviously may differ 200 years from now AND may be bent and/or discard due to extreme situations (Vulcan being under attack and latter on destroyed along with several ships with crew would classified as such). War situation will drive rank fast and I don't have a problem with that but, indeed, Jumping to Captain from Cadet within a few hours doesn't make sense at all.

 

[Holodoc]

Just because all cadets go on training assignments does not mean that all cadets do something that merits further promotion beyond the graduating rank of Ensign.

But we're not talking about 'all cadets' here. What you're saying is that James Kirk, and not even regular James Kirk but only this particular James Kirk, has ever been worthy of being promoted to captain. And what I'm saying is, if it's even possible to do this (go right from ungraduated cadet to captain of the flagship), then some cadet, somewhere, in the hundreds of students, in hundreds of years of graudating classes, should've managed to so much as jump from cadet to captain of, say, a medical ship, or a research vessel. Kirk's promotion is absurd because it puts him so completely far removed from hundreds of years of Starfleet practice and tradition as to be, not a realistic character with a believable career, but some sort of absurd Gary Stu who warps the plot, not to mention common sense, around the sheer aura of what the writers think is his utter awesomeness.

 

[zambingo]

You can't gain a promotion until you have rank. Cadet is not a rank. You don't get rank until you graduate - when you become an Ensign. You don't have rank when you're in training. That's why they call you cadet. Because you don't have rank. It's the equivalent of calling an enlisted person who is in training a recruit. When you don't have rank, you can't get promoted. It's impossible.

Take it from someone who's spent a decade in the military. Trust me on this. I know what I'm talking about.

Star Trek has never been consistent with the modern military. So comparisons tend to fail. And this isn't the only time Star Trek has had officers still going to the Academy.

Wrong. It was always Roddenberry's intent to model the rank and career fields off of the U.S. military, of which he was once a member.

Gene Roddenberry was heavily involved with TOS, obviously, not so much the films, then again quite a bit at the start of TNG.

In TOS it is displayed that Kirk, as a Lieutenant and still in study at the Academy also ... and this through implications of the terms used, acted as a squad leader, student teacher or graduate student sitting in for a course or occasional class when the primary instructor was otherwise occupied.

This is detailed in the TOS episode called Shore Leave.

 

[J.T.B.]

I just saw the movie yesterday and haven't read every post in this thread thoroughly, so please forgive me if I'm re-hashing points that others have already made.

Rank, time in grade and time in service happen for a reason.

(snip)

No rank of officer has the ability to promote someone more than two steps in grade. To move four steps in grade would take an act of congress.

In our service, in our era. Other services have worked differently.

In the era of professionally-led armies and navies (as opposed to feudal, aristocracy-led), what services have awarded O-6 level commands to entry-level officers? I think the only examples you will find will be in battle when every intervening senior officer has been eliminated. And the arrangement does not become permanent afterward.

The historic trend has definitely been toward longer service and experience before command, not shorter. If we made an educated guess, it would be that commanding a starship in the TOS time frame would take at least as much service experience as warship command does today, that is usually 15-20 years. With more technology, science, and alien cultural relations to learn, plus the factor of longer lifespans, the starship career path could easily be longer.

But what if someone is a natural, a genius, a wunderkind? Think about it in other professions: Why shouldn't a brilliant medical graduate be made head of surgery at a hospital? Why shouldn't a young shortstop phenom be made manager of a major league team? Why shouldn't a over-achieving 22-year old foreign service school grad be put in charge of a diplomatic mission?

The answer, of course, is that nothing can substitute for experience, and the stakes are too high. Put yourself in the shoes of an admiral. You have, on the one hand, an obviously super-able, talented kid, just out of school, who pulled off a brilliant, heroic action. On the other hand, you have a captain or senior commander, who has paid his dues, worked through the ranks, held different responsible positions, managed smaller commands and accumulated a record of sterling service. Who do you entrust with billions worth of vessel and hundreds of lives? Realistically, now, what responsible boss would answer "the kid"? One brilliant action doesn't guarantee future performance. Neither does a two-decade career, of course, but what odds would you play?

Kirk's promotions in the movie imply that commanding a starship is much simpler than commanding a warship IRL today, that a talented prodigy can do it, no big deal. It implies that a few years of classroom and simulator training, plus one important and action-packed mission, is enough to reach one of the pinnacles of the profession. Whereas today, an officer spends the better part of two decades serving in assignments such as division officer at sea, a ship's department head, staff duty ashore, staff duty at sea, several years in various graduate schools, training or instructor positions, joint assignments working with other services, and a cruise as XO at sea.

Being a warship commander is one of the most responsibility-laden jobs in the world today, has been since national navies were instituted, and apparently is still in TOS's time ("not one man in a million" can command a starship, TOS "Court Martial"). Are we really supposed to believe that being a major Starfleet unit CO requires so little in the way of practical learning and experience? I just can't buy it.

A whole other issue is the effect that kind of promoting would have on the rest of the officer corps. That has been tried in the real world, too, and experience has been overwhelmingly against using promotion as a reward for valor, heroism or outstanding service. It's much more effective and efficient to develop a system of awards and decorations.

I'm not going to call the promotions a deal-breaker for the movie, but they definitely knocked it down a few pegs in my estimation.

--Justin

 

[zambingo]

Just because all cadets go on training assignments does not mean that all cadets do something that merits further promotion beyond the graduating rank of Ensign.

But we're not talking about 'all cadets' here. What you're saying is that James Kirk, and not even regular James Kirk but only this particular James Kirk, has ever been worthy of being promoted to captain. And what I'm saying is, if it's even possible to do this (go right from ungraduated cadet to captain of the flagship), then some cadet, somewhere, in the hundreds of students, in hundreds of years of graudating classes, should've managed to so much as jump from cadet to captain of, say, a medical ship, or a research vessel. Kirk's promotion is absurd because it puts him so completely far removed from hundreds of years of Starfleet practice and tradition as to be, not a realistic character with a believable career, but some sort of absurd Gary Stu who warps the plot, not to mention common sense, around the sheer aura of what the writers think is his utter awesomeness.

Kirk in this film is supposedly about 25 to 27 after the three year jump.

In TNG there was an instance shown where a female officer achieved the command rank of Captain at... I think it was 27. In TOS canon it was said and/or implied that Kirk Prime received the rank of Captain around his 30th birthday.

Star Trek does not insist that NO ONE else can do what Kirk did. Just this story shows WHAT KIRK DID.

 

[Islander]

Just because all cadets go on training assignments does not mean that all cadets do something that merits further promotion beyond the graduating rank of Ensign.

But we're not talking about 'all cadets' here. What you're saying is that James Kirk, and not even regular James Kirk but only this particular James Kirk, has ever been worthy of being promoted to captain. And what I'm saying is, if it's even possible to do this (go right from ungraduated cadet to captain of the flagship), then some cadet, somewhere, in the hundreds of students, in hundreds of years of graudating classes, should've managed to so much as jump from cadet to captain of, say, a medical ship, or a research vessel. Kirk's promotion is absurd because it puts him so completely far removed from hundreds of years of Starfleet practice and tradition as to be, not a realistic character with a believable career, but some sort of absurd Gary Stu who warps the plot, not to mention common sense, around the sheer aura of what the writers think is his utter awesomeness.

Kirk in this film is supposedly about 25 to 27 after the three year jump.

In TNG there was an instance shown where a female officer achieved the command rank of Captain at... I think it was 27. In TOS canon it was said and/or implied that Kirk Prime received the rank of Captain around his 30th birthday.

Star Trek does not insist that NO ONE else can do what Kirk did. Just this story shows WHAT KIRK DID.

The point is not about how fast you can get there but skipping ranks all together. One guy dies, so you're promoted. Another guy 10 minutes after, you're it. I think there's a guy that went from conscripted private to general within the course of WWII. BUT HE DID ALL RANKS STEP BY STEP.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

McCoy is wearing Lieutenant Commanders' stripes right out of the Academy (after only three years as well!).

He's a doctor. Rank is provided by position alone and does not lead to command.

But Starfleet Academy is a four-year school. Seems a bit early for him to be carrying a Lt. Commander rank.

Apparently, Starfleet commissions its doctors the same way the US military does. My dad was in the Army Medical Corps, and he was commissioned as an O-3 Captain right away. He didn't need to go to West Point.

 

[BillJ]

I just saw the movie yesterday and haven't read every post in this thread thoroughly, so please forgive me if I'm re-hashing points that others have already made.

Rank, time in grade and time in service happen for a reason.

(snip)

No rank of officer has the ability to promote someone more than two steps in grade. To move four steps in grade would take an act of congress.

In our service, in our era. Other services have worked differently.

In the era of professionally-led armies and navies (as opposed to feudal, aristocracy-led), what services have awarded O-6 level commands to entry-level officers? I think the only examples you will find will be in battle when every intervening senior officer has been eliminated. And the arrangement does not become permanent afterward.

The historic trend has definitely been toward longer service and experience before command, not shorter. If we made an educated guess, it would be that commanding a starship in the TOS time frame would take at least as much service experience as warship command does today, that is usually 15-20 years. With more technology, science, and alien cultural relations to learn, plus the factor of longer lifespans, the starship career path could easily be longer.

But what if someone is a natural, a genius, a wunderkind? Think about it in other professions: Why shouldn't a brilliant medical graduate be made head of surgery at a hospital? Why shouldn't a young shortstop phenom be made manager of a major league team? Why shouldn't a over-achieving 22-year old foreign service school grad be put in charge of a diplomatic mission?

The answer, of course, is that nothing can substitute for experience, and the stakes are too high. Put yourself in the shoes of an admiral. You have, on the one hand, an obviously super-able, talented kid, just out of school, who pulled off a brilliant, heroic action. On the other hand, you have a captain or senior commander, who has paid his dues, worked through the ranks, held different responsible positions, managed smaller commands and accumulated a record of sterling service. Who do you entrust with billions worth of vessel and hundreds of lives? Realistically, now, what responsible boss would answer "the kid"? One brilliant action doesn't guarantee future performance. Neither does a two-decade career, of course, but what odds would you play?

Kirk's promotions in the movie imply that commanding a starship is much simpler than commanding a warship IRL today, that a talented prodigy can do it, no big deal. It implies that a few years of classroom and simulator training, plus one important and action-packed mission, is enough to reach one of the pinnacles of the profession. Whereas today, an officer spends the better part of two decades serving in assignments such as division officer at sea, a ship's department head, staff duty ashore, staff duty at sea, several years in various graduate schools, training or instructor positions, joint assignments working with other services, and a cruise as XO at sea.

Being a warship commander is one of the most responsibility-laden jobs in the world today, has been since national navies were instituted, and apparently is still in TOS's time ("not one man in a million" can command a starship, TOS "Court Martial"). Are we really supposed to believe that being a major Starfleet unit CO requires so little in the way of practical learning and experience? I just can't buy it.

A whole other issue is the effect that kind of promoting would have on the rest of the officer corps. That has been tried in the real world, too, and experience has been overwhelmingly against using promotion as a reward for valor, heroism or outstanding service. It's much more effective and efficient to develop a system of awards and decorations.

I'm not going to call the promotions a deal-breaker for the movie, but they definitely knocked it down a few pegs in my estimation.

--Justin

Great points.

Except that even TOS Kirk bucked that trend. If we suppose that he took command sometime between 29 and 32, he spent less than a decade in active service (still far more experience than ST09).

I figure this promotion ends up working, if they explore the ramifications in follow-up movies.

 

[BillJ]

The problem with this is not only that it's absurd on the face of it, but any and all explanations offered fall short of explaining why nobody else, ever, in the history of Starfleet, has managed to do the same thing.

Except that we don't know whether it has happened or not. We still know very little about Starfleet's early days.

 

[Bobatiel]

I like how none of you people have any clue what you're talking about.

How very superior and condescending.

What, may I ask, makes you the definitive fact stater of this discussion?

Or are you including yourself in your statement? Which makes the first two points invalid.

Try ten years military experience and thirty years worth of Star Trek.

You do know that space ships going FTL are not real?. Or are you trying to tell us you know all about a Starfleet that's fictional, 200 years in the future and is not completely military because you've been in the real military for 10 years? Sheesh!

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

How very superior and condescending.

What, may I ask, makes you the definitive fact stater of this discussion?

Or are you including yourself in your statement? Which makes the first two points invalid.

Try ten years military experience and thirty years worth of Star Trek.

You do know that space ships going FTL are not real?. Or are you trying to tell us you know all about a Starfleet that's fictional, 200 years in the future and is not completely military because you've been in the real military for 10 years? Sheesh!

How anyone can call themselves a fan be completely unaware of the fact that Starfleet rank is based on modern day military rank is beyond me. And I really don't understand how having watched Star Trek for thirty years plus isn't long enough to understand the ranking system.

 

[BillJ]

Try ten years military experience and thirty years worth of Star Trek.

You do know that space ships going FTL are not real?. Or are you trying to tell us you know all about a Starfleet that's fictional, 200 years in the future and is not completely military because you've been in the real military for 10 years? Sheesh!

How anyone can call themselves a fan be completely unaware of the fact that Starfleet rank is based on modern day military rank is beyond me. And I really don't understand how having watched Star Trek for thirty years plus isn't long enough to understand the ranking system.

Of course it was. But over the years various writers have tweaked it for the purposes of the stories they were telling. Right or wrong... it is what it is.

 

[Neopeius]

Considering the intellectual and reality level of the rest of the film, I find this a silly topic of discussion.

I will say that with Starfleet possessing so few vessels, you'd think

1) The quality of personnel would be better

2) There would be a lot more competition for positions

 

[AlanC9]

In the era of professionally-led armies and navies (as opposed to feudal, aristocracy-led), what services have awarded O-6 level commands to entry-level officers?

O-6? This board is stuffed with Trek jargon already. Do we really need to add 21st century jargon too? I can read this stuff since I'm a military history buff, but most folks on the board probably can't.

And no, I can't think of any. But I'm not so much defending the film as demanding an actual case against it, rather than just righteous indigation. Which you're providing, so I thank you for that.

Think about it in other professions: Why shouldn't a brilliant medical graduate be made head of surgery at a hospital? Why shouldn't a young shortstop phenom be made manager of a major league team? Why shouldn't a over-achieving 22-year old foreign service school grad be put in charge of a diplomatic mission?

Looking at these, I can't help but think that the first two involve different skill sets; what makes someone a good chief of surgery isn't necessarily being the best surgeon (unless "chief" is purely ceremonial), and great managers aren't typically made from great players. (I'm reminded of a certain US Navy squadron commander in WW2, who was known to be both a great leader of men and, tragically, a fairly bad pilot.) As for the third, that's an information problem; being a great student doesn't imply being a great diplomat; we don't have good tests for what we need to know.

The answer, of course, is that nothing can substitute for experience, and the stakes are too high. Put yourself in the shoes of an admiral. You have, on the one hand, an obviously super-able, talented kid, just out of school, who pulled off a brilliant, heroic action. On the other hand, you have a captain or senior commander, who has paid his dues, worked through the ranks, held different responsible positions, managed smaller commands and accumulated a record of sterling service. Who do you entrust with billions worth of vessel and hundreds of lives? Realistically, now, what responsible boss would answer "the kid"? One brilliant action doesn't guarantee future performance. Neither does a two-decade career, of course, but what odds would you play?

But that isn't an experience argument at all. It's an argument about screening, again. The senior man isn't necessarily better because of his experience, but you can have a high degree of confidence in his future performance based on his past performance. You can't have the same confidence in the youngster because his past performance could just be a fluke.

It's still a good argument, though. At least against the end of the movie; Pike making Kirk XO in the film can be seen as a reasonable decision, based on the knowledge he has about the personnel available to him on Enterprise at that time. But being the best man out of a few hundred to be XO is a completely different proposition from being one of the top 12 (??) prospective captains in all of Starfleet.

 

[Bobatiel]

Try ten years military experience and thirty years worth of Star Trek.

You do know that space ships going FTL are not real?. Or are you trying to tell us you know all about a Starfleet that's fictional, 200 years in the future and is not completely military because you've been in the real military for 10 years? Sheesh!

How anyone can call themselves a fan be completely unaware of the fact that Starfleet rank is based on modern day military rank is beyond me.

It's beyond me too.... Just what are you talking about?

And I really don't understand how having watched Star Trek for thirty years plus isn't long enough to understand the ranking system.

I get it. It's you that doesn't. You're ascribing your real world experience to a fictional universe.

Yes, it is based on it.

They're just not identical 200 years later as you yourself keep pointing out. That's ok by me. No big deal.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

You do know that space ships going FTL are not real?. Or are you trying to tell us you know all about a Starfleet that's fictional, 200 years in the future and is not completely military because you've been in the real military for 10 years? Sheesh!

How anyone can call themselves a fan be completely unaware of the fact that Starfleet rank is based on modern day military rank is beyond me.

It's beyond me too.... Just what are you talking about?

And I really don't understand how having watched Star Trek for thirty years plus isn't long enough to understand the ranking system.

I get it. It's you that doesn't. You're ascribing your real world experience to a fictional universe.

Yes, it is based on it.

They're just not identical 200 years later as you yourself keep pointing out. That's ok by me. No big deal.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Starfleet_ranks

 

[Rob Grant]

Well. The Enterprise seemed to be full of new cadets, except Spock, who was logically in command for much of STXI. Remove Pike, emotionally compromise Spock, and it logically fell to Kirk, who was assigned as XO by Pike.
We also have Kirk's "off the charts" aptitute tests, and so on.

In might not make sense from a strictly military perspective, but it does make perfect sense from a Horatio Hornblower point of view. Still a stretch, but it's not the first (or last) time Kirk's rank does some gymnastics.

WTF? or last? what the fuck do u mean? 'or last'? You know what happens in the sequel do you?

 

[Tentacle]

Nogg: "so you are saying if I took command I would be called captain?"

O'brian: "cadet by the time you took command no one would be alive to call you anything."

 

[blaXXer]

How anyone can call themselves a fan be completely unaware of the fact that Starfleet rank is based on modern day military rank is beyond me.

It's beyond me too.... Just what are you talking about?

And I really don't understand how having watched Star Trek for thirty years plus isn't long enough to understand the ranking system.

I get it. It's you that doesn't. You're ascribing your real world experience to a fictional universe.

Yes, it is based on it.

They're just not identical 200 years later as you yourself keep pointing out. That's ok by me. No big deal.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Starfleet_ranks

Wrong Universe.