Not rescuing Nero: thumbs up or down?

[Feofilakt]

As I understand it the red matter was becoming unstable and would have destroyed the ship. I thought this was discussed already?

Well I'll admit I have been following multiple threads today where this is discussed, but Kurtzman and Orci's statements on the subject would appear to be definitive.

I will say this - the dialogue handles it flippantly, which is regrettable. But I don't think it's morally indefensible by a long shot.

What they are saying seems to defy what happened in film, a sort of backpeddling generated by criticism. Wouldn't be the first time it happened.

 

[QuasarVM]

Are we actually debating this? Come on! Nero destroyed an entire PLANET, nearly decimated the Vulcans, killed Spock's mother, and killed Kirk's Father and many others aboard the U.S.S. Kelvin.

Then...

Kirk makes an offer to provide aid. Spock may have given into an emotional desire for retribution, but it's also quite logical. And then Nero spits in Kirk's face. I would have done the same thing, and I would have been pissed if they somehow rescued Nero, only to prove how "noble" they are. F#$K NERO! Let him die. The galaxy is safer without him. And it was a badass moment.

Exactly. How many chances must one give evil?

Evil exists and when it acts up it needs it's arse kicked.

Kirk and Spock did just that.

Who's to say they let him sink into the black hole and he repairs his ship on the other side and comes back for a double dip?

They did the right thing...exactly as I would have.

Again, this guy was not some honorable soldier just doing his job. He was a mass murderer.

 

[ClayHefner]

The way the writers explained it, Kirk had to destroy the ship in any case because it is designed to travel through wormholes and was likely to survive.

Even if Kirk said they'd be crushed and surrendering was their only possibility to survive, it could just be a trick to get them as prisoner BEFORE destroying the ship as ordered. There is no moral problem for Kirk whatsoever.

I mean: If this was really some "new ruthless Kirk", wouldn't he just order to FIRE EVERYTHING on the Nerada for Spock and everyone else to enjoy?
And if the writers would want us to see things will be different now, why would they include that scene in the first place? They could have easily changed the scene so that they wouldn't be in that situation.

This is the same Kirk from TOS. They didn't put this in to show that this is a new Kirk and that Star Trek will now be different, but that they consider Kirk's compassion as central to his character.

 

[QuasarVM]

I don't think so. I think it was dying because the last two films happened to be quite bad, and Enterprise didn't have strong enough characters for people to get attached to them or good enough stories for people to care.

Um, whose goals are you talking about?

(Man, this is starting to depress me. )

So, um, basically you're saying evil should get a "get out of jail free card"...

No, evil should get a "go straight to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect $200" card.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I don't think so. I think it was dying because the last two films happened to be quite bad, and Enterprise didn't have strong enough characters for people to get attached to them or good enough stories for people to care.

Um, whose goals are you talking about?

(Man, this is starting to depress me. )

So, um, basically you're saying evil should get a "get out of jail free card"...

Negative, evil should be confronted with the tools of justice, not further evil.

Some people would say one tool of justice is a big gun.

 

[loldrey]

Thumbs up! Sometimes I get tired of Starfleet diplomacy and just want to see some people get a little pissed off!

And I thought it was about time that Spock went a little out of character. Probably my favorite part of the movie.

 

[Feofilakt]

So, um, basically you're saying evil should get a "get out of jail free card"...

Negative, evil should be confronted with the tools of justice, not further evil.

Some people would say one tool of justice is a big gun.

Those people are confusing enforcement with equalization and would be incorrect. Just because I shoot badguys does not mean that I have equalized anything, I have merely removed someone from the environment with the previous injustice very much still open and festering.

 

[QuasarVM]

So, um, basically you're saying evil should get a "get out of jail free card"...

Negative, evil should be confronted with the tools of justice, not further evil.

Some people would say one tool of justice is a big gun.

You got that right! Or fully charged phaser banks in this case...

 

[QuasarVM]

Negative, evil should be confronted with the tools of justice, not further evil.

Some people would say one tool of justice is a big gun.

Those people are confusing enforcement with equalization and would be incorrect. Just because I shoot badguys does not mean that I have equalized anything, I have merely removed someone from the environment with the previous injustice very much still open and festering.

Yeah...the injustice of mass murder committed against Vulcan. They'll never get to heal that one, eh?

 

[Borgminister]

Kirk didn't try to give this charmer a 'leg up', did he?

 

[Feofilakt]

Some people would say one tool of justice is a big gun.

Those people are confusing enforcement with equalization and would be incorrect. Just because I shoot badguys does not mean that I have equalized anything, I have merely removed someone from the environment with the previous injustice very much still open and festering.

Yeah...the injustice of mass murder committed against Vulcan. They'll never get to heal that one, eh?

I would say the healing after the Holocaust and Nazi war crimes was due in part to the respectful and excellent conduct of the Western allies after the war. If humanity was robbed of a trial and proof not only of the wrong they did but equalization as well, we would all be worse off in the end. We have rule of law, formal trials, and ethical systems for a reason, you know, it's not just philosophical fluff.

 

[Feofilakt]

Kirk didn't try to give this charmer a 'leg up', did he?

Kirk tried to help him, Kruge instead tried to drag him down. Kruge was a threat up until his grasp was removed and then gravity took over. There is no ethical flaw here, it makes perfect sense.

 

[ALF]

Thumbs waaaay up.
Guess what. Picard and Janeway had their go at talking their enemies into submission. this is Kirk's Trek.
He is going to kick some alien ass and then he is coming for you.

 

[Feofilakt]

Thumbs waaaay up.
Guess what. Picard and Janeway had their go at talking their enemies into submission. this is Kirk's Trek.
He is going to kick some alien ass and then he is coming for you.

Right, let's just turn Star Trek into Armor or Starship Troopers, won't we?

 

[Franklin]

So let's be clear: in order to match your standard for moral perfection, we must put a ship of 1000 people in serious jeopardy to rescue a crew (unknown number) of hostile armed individuals led by a genocidal maniac, who are refusing help and actively trying to kill us, and who may or may not escape in their (damaged but still very dangerous) ship to attack another time period?

No, just let the ship sink. Very simple.

You are conveniently ignoring the repeated conclusion, backed up by the screenwriters, that the Narada could have slipped away into the ringwarp, and threatened another time period. Ignoring your opponents argument does not constitute a win.

B.S. to what Orci and Kurtzman say off-screen. It's the same logic as needing to read the comic in order to better understand what's happening. Hey, Orci, Kurtzma, write a better story. If that possibility existed, then have Chekov notice Nero is trying to slip the Narada into a ringwarp and get away through time. PUT IT ON SCREEN. HAVE SOMEONE SAY IT. Takes 30 seconds. Have Kirk and Spock realize rescue is now ridiculous, and open up on the escaping Narada, destroying it just before it enters the warp.

Further, Orci and Kurtzman had to think of the characters's motivations in that scene. What prompts Kirk to offer rescue? Was it sincere? Why would Spock believe it's not necessary in this case? Is Spock really seeking revenge? Does he really want to kill Nero? To what end?

 

[Base_Delta_Zero]

Yep. Put a couple of caps in him to settle the score and go have a couple of Budweiser Classics. Sorry, if the above is PC, then TOS was PC way before the phrase was coined.

I blame those who have no problem with what Kirk and especially Spock did (or at least the way they did it) on watching too much Jack Bauer.

So let's be clear: in order to match your standard for moral perfection, we must put a ship of 1000 people in serious jeopardy to rescue a crew (unknown number) of hostile armed individuals led by a genocidal maniac, who are refusing help and actively trying to kill us, and who may or may not escape in their (damaged but still very dangerous) ship to attack another time period?

No, just let the ship sink. Very simple.

Yeah, let the enemy ship from the future armed with uber-weapons, capable of surviving a temporally-linked blackhole and crewed by fanatical, genocidal nutjobs sink ... through the black hole time portal into someone else's backyard. Let some other jerk deal with it. Not your timeline, right? Who cares?

Mealy-mouthed cowardice is not moral fortitude. Passing the buck is not moral fortitude. Suicidal niceness is not moral fortitude.

Throw out all the philosophical big names you want. Justice is irrelevent. Revenge - irrelevent. All that matters is lives. Dead people don't get to moralize and wring their hands about might have beens. The Narada was a direct threat to both the Enterprise and another whole reality. Kirk had the upper hand and offered Nero the chance to surrender. He declined. The battle was resumed until the threat was ended.

Kirk is a Starfleet captain, his duty is to protect his crew, the Federation and any potential innocents in harms way. That's it. He didn't swear to ensure he would sleep soundly at night, though I have no doubt whatever bad dreams he may have won't be over ordering the Narada's coup de grâce.

In the real-world Navy, if you offer to accept the surrender of an enemy vessel which is sinking and are refused, you don't wait for it to sink - you sink it. War isn't a game or debate in an ivory tower.

 

[Feofilakt]

No, just let the ship sink. Very simple.

You are conveniently ignoring the repeated conclusion, backed up by the screenwriters, that the Narada could have slipped away into the ringwarp, and threatened another time period. Ignoring your opponents argument does not constitute a win.

B.S. to what Orci and Kurtzman say off-screen. It's the same logic as needing to read the comic in order to better understand what's happening. Hey, Orci, Kurtzma, write a better story. If that possibility existed, then have Chekov notice Nero is trying to slip the Narada into a ringwarp and get away through time. PUT IT ON SCREEN. HAVE SOMEONE SAY IT. Takes 30 seconds. Have Kirk and Spock realize rescue is now ridiculous, and open up on the escaping Narada, destroying it just before it enters the warp.

Further, Orci and Kurtzman had to think of the characters's motivations in that scene. What prompts Kirk to offer rescue? Was it sincere? Why would Spock believe it's not necessary in this case? Is Spock really seeking revenge? Does he really want to kill Nero? To what end?

Excellent point. If they just received a panic notice from Chekhov about this and THEN they blew it up, maybe with a small pause afterwards and maybe Spock looking as if it's not what he really wanted it would have been PERFECT and also PERFECT Trek.

 

[Feofilakt]

So let's be clear: in order to match your standard for moral perfection, we must put a ship of 1000 people in serious jeopardy to rescue a crew (unknown number) of hostile armed individuals led by a genocidal maniac, who are refusing help and actively trying to kill us, and who may or may not escape in their (damaged but still very dangerous) ship to attack another time period?

No, just let the ship sink. Very simple.

Yeah, let the enemy ship from the future armed with uber-weapons, capable of surviving a temporally-linked blackhole and crewed by fanatical, genocidal nutjobs sink ... through the black hole time portal into someone else's backyard. Let some other jerk deal with it. Not your timeline, right? Who cares?

Mealy-mouthed cowardice is not moral fortitude. Passing the buck is not moral fortitude. Suicidal niceness is not moral fortitude.

Throw out all the philosophical big names you want. Justice is irrelevent. Revenge - irrelevent. All that matters is lives. Dead people don't get to moralize and wring their hands about might have beens. The Narada was a direct threat to both the Enterprise and another whole reality. Kirk had the upper hand and offered Nero the chance to surrender. He declined. The battle was resumed until the threat was ended.

Kirk is a Starfleet captain, his duty is to protect his crew, the Federation and any potential innocents in harms way. That's it. He didn't swear to ensure he would sleep soundly at night, though I have no doubt whatever bad dreams he may have won't be over ordering the Narada's coup de grâce.

In the real-world Navy, if you offer to accept the surrender of an enemy vessel which is sinking and are refused, you don't wait for it to sink - you sink it. War isn't a game or debate in an ivory tower.

Except Star Trek isn't military fiction, if it was I'd be holding it to this standard.

 

[DarthPipes]

Nero kills 6 billion people by destroying Vulcan. Kills Spock's mom. Killed Kirk's dad. Orphans Kirk. Tried to destroy Earth. Was responsible for the death of more than a few Star Fleet officers along the way.

At this point:

Kirk offers Nero assistance. Nero spits back in his face he would rather die a thousand agonizing deaths than accept help. Kirk obliges.

I'm good with that.

Exactly. Giving him an opportunity to be saved was VINTAGE James T. Kirk. Spock's reaction was completely out-of-character but as his younger and older selves noted, he was emotionally compromised.

Nero refused so Kirk was happy to oblige.

 

[Franklin]

You are conveniently ignoring the repeated conclusion, backed up by the screenwriters, that the Narada could have slipped away into the ringwarp, and threatened another time period. Ignoring your opponents argument does not constitute a win.

B.S. to what Orci and Kurtzman say off-screen. It's the same logic as needing to read the comic in order to better understand what's happening. Hey, Orci, Kurtzma, write a better story. If that possibility existed, then have Chekov notice Nero is trying to slip the Narada into a ringwarp and get away through time. PUT IT ON SCREEN. HAVE SOMEONE SAY IT. Takes 30 seconds. Have Kirk and Spock realize rescue is now ridiculous, and open up on the escaping Narada, destroying it just before it enters the warp.

Further, Orci and Kurtzman had to think of the characters's motivations in that scene. What prompts Kirk to offer rescue? Was it sincere? Why would Spock believe it's not necessary in this case? Is Spock really seeking revenge? Does he really want to kill Nero? To what end?

Excellent point. If they just received a panic notice from Chekhov about this and THEN they blew it up, maybe with a small pause afterwards and maybe Spock looking as if it's not what he really wanted it would have been PERFECT and also PERFECT Trek.

Exactly, Spock never really wanted to see anything/one killed. He was always the one who regretted it when that had to be the course of action. It would've fit. He could've regretted the Vulcans did not have the ability to have Nero stand before them and account for his crime. He could have even regretted the loss of the technology in not getting ahold of Nero's ship. That's what he could've been thinking.