Not rescuing Nero: thumbs up or down?

[QuasarVM]

Also, Picard is better than Kirk any day.

And thus...credibility died a painful death...

 

[Feofilakt]

Also, Picard is better than Kirk any day.

And thus...credibility died a painful death...

How so? Picard was better written and had a much more talented actor. Kirk is cool and I respect the TOS crew, but give credit where credit is due.

 

[QuasarVM]

So because we're the "good guys" we have to sacrifice ourselves on the altar of "rule of law"? Rule of law is stopping evil as well. That doesn't mean setting yourself up for further attack as Nero clearly showed he had ZERO regret for his actions and had ZERO intent of surrendering. Kirk and Spock gave the cretin what he deserved vis a vis a volley of high powered photon torpedoes and fully charged phasers -- and dished out justice admirably. I can tell you Nero won't be coming back for a second shot at the Federation...

Who said anything about sacrifice? Nero wasn't a threat in his condition and was likely to be crushed anyway. If the poor writing of the money didn't convey the danger effectively enough or at all of his escaping than that is the writer's fault and it merely shows how important writing is so everything meshes together and makes sense.

If they (the writers) wanted to kill Nero so badly they should have made him an imminent threat or shown that he was about to escape.

Going by the information IN THE MOVIE, this was not the case, sorry. We can only go by the information we have and the information that was conveyed to us in the movie did not make Kirk or Spock look good at all and was not in keeping with the Federation.

Also, that wasn't justice. Necessity at the best, moral gratification at the worst, but it wasn't justice.

I'm glad to know you're not in charge of any miltary or law enforcement department.What would you have done?Let a proven psychopath go about the stars killing who he wants with impunity?

500 quatloos for Silversmok!! Yes, that's exactly what he'd do...

 

[Feofilakt]

Who said anything about sacrifice? Nero wasn't a threat in his condition and was likely to be crushed anyway. If the poor writing of the money didn't convey the danger effectively enough or at all of his escaping than that is the writer's fault and it merely shows how important writing is so everything meshes together and makes sense.

If they (the writers) wanted to kill Nero so badly they should have made him an imminent threat or shown that he was about to escape.

Going by the information IN THE MOVIE, this was not the case, sorry. We can only go by the information we have and the information that was conveyed to us in the movie did not make Kirk or Spock look good at all and was not in keeping with the Federation.

Also, that wasn't justice. Necessity at the best, moral gratification at the worst, but it wasn't justice.

I'm glad to know you're not in charge of any miltary or law enforcement department.What would you have done?Let a proven psychopath go about the stars killing who he wants with impunity?

500 quatloos for Silversmok!! Yes, that's exactly what he'd do...

You may be taking the argument too far, Quazar. Where does it state anywhere in any deontological works that we should let killers go? For christ's sakes Immanual Kant advocated to reserve the death penalty for special circumstances bound by the rule of law.

 

[QuasarVM]

Most people in a war situation don't have an "out to save their ethics." They don't conveniently see that the guy was going to get away, they have to make a decision NOW and live with the moral ambiguity of it, an ambiguity that will often never be answered because the guy they offed is dead.

I like this new Trek. I would like to see future conflicts with enemies with moral ambiguity and with action having to proceed without all the data in yet.

That is well and good, and most certainly realistic... but Trek was supposed to have an idealism about it. When I read Sophocles and Aeschylus I read them to see how people should act, and I read Euripides and Juvenal to see how they do act. They are entirely separate things and if one were to merge with the other you would lose something. Star Trek is special because it holds onto a certain realism and does not dwell in the moral ambiguity that would otherwise render it not very special. If Star Trek is as morally ambiguous as say... The Forever War, part of the essence of Trek is lost.

Also, I'm a huge pessimist with a good background in sociology, philosophy, history, and psychology. I know how shitty and morally ambiguous the world can be, and I try to reserve some media that can allow me to forget it in some capacity and provide some hope, however feeble or unlikely, that humans can be different and become something different.

There's nothing wrong with idealism-but there has to be some honesty to it.Just like we'd all like and hope for credit loan forgiveness,its probably not gonna happen.Its the same ethos with Trek.Part of the problem with old Trek was that while it had a positive ideal the story didn't make sense because of it.And it fundamentally wouldn't make sense to walk away from a genocidal criminal when you not only have him by the short hairs,but he also rejected your olive branch.

All that Roddenberrian Utopian crap sounds good...and reads good on paper -- but that's not how people are. A real person would respond the way Kirk and Spock did in that situation.

So, I am just glad that Orci and Kurtzman have brought reality back to Star Trek. Come to think of it, that's why TOS is my favorite Trek with DS9 a very close second: Those people were REAL.

They weren't these utopian characatures based on Roddenberry's unattainable idealism...

Don't get me wrong, sure, it would be NICE if people were as charitable and forgiving as say, Jean Luc Picard...but they aren't. And truthfully, I don't think they ever will be.

I say it would be nice...maybe not...because we'd have bad people given a free ride and chance after chance to kill and kill again.

Evil will always take advantage of the naieve, weak and idealistic...and most of the time evil doesn't want our charity anyway -- like Nero.

 

[QuasarVM]

Also, Picard is better than Kirk any day.

And thus...credibility died a painful death...

How so? Picard was better written and had a much more talented actor. Kirk is cool and I respect the TOS crew, but give credit where credit is due.

Picard is a good "Ambassador"...Kirk, being THE MAN...can be an ambassador, but if push comes to shove -- he'll kick arse.

That's why he's THE MAN.

 

[Immolatus]

To me, one real plot hole in the movie was when Kirk and Spock acted completely out of character in finishing off a helpless Nero. It bothered the hell out of me. Kirk didn't seem all that serious about rescuing Nero. And Spock's response was almost flippant. No debate.
-- OK, Nero destroyed Spock's planet of six billion people. So, does that mean Spock is entitled to go "thumbs up or thumbs down" on Nero's life? No rescue attempt. Instead, let him die. In fact, kill him. Spock is exacting his own kind of revenge on Nero. But is that in character? Even for the Spock in this movie? Revenge is not logical. Killing Nero does not bring Vulcan back. Spock, any Spock, knows that.
-- Even Kirk knows that. Instead it's Kirk as executioner. What will he say in his log? That they decided not to try to save Nero and his crew? Instead, they actually opened fire on his ship as it fell into the black hole? Kirk was a warrior, and he killed, but he had no bloodlust. He didn't kill if he didn't have to. He never destroyed a helpless enemy. Apparently, like the Klingons, this young Kirk doesn't take prisoners.

Think of it this way, would this cavalier killing had been accepted as in-character in a TOS episode? I don't think so.

If Kirk and Spock had acted in character, they would've decided they had to try to save Nero and his crew. Naturally, it endangers the Enterprise. (It's a better reason for it getting caught by black hole than the one in the movie.)

Of course, to keep up the action, Nero could've fought the attempt, and Kirk finally has to decide to get the Enterprise out of there before it's destroyed, too. In other words, little in the story had to change. Scotty still has to save the Enterprise as the Narada is swallowed by the black hole.

When it was over, maybe McCoy could've asked why Kirk endangered his ship and crew to save Nero. There could've followed a short discussion among McCoy, Kirk, and Spock aboout the senselessness of seeking revenge and the need to show mercy. "I will not kill, today," something like that. Very much in line with the sensibilities that made TOS stand out. Instead, the opposite occurred. Kirk and Spock exacted Old West justice with no questions asked.

both Kirk and Spock had lost something dear to them because of Nero. Not just Vulcan but a parent. Its hard to show ma\ercy to a man who killed your father

 

[Feofilakt]

And thus...credibility died a painful death...

How so? Picard was better written and had a much more talented actor. Kirk is cool and I respect the TOS crew, but give credit where credit is due.

Picard is a good "Ambassador"...Kirk, being THE MAN...can be an ambassador, but if push comes to shove -- he'll kick arse.

That's why he's THE MAN.

I think if you analyze the record you will find Picard and Kirk's "asskicking" as you say to be more or less even. Except Picard has class and style while he does with perfect, or near perfect justification.

I would rather be on Picard's Enterprise any day of the week.

 

[CommanderTrip]

I'm gonna have to go ahead and give the thumbs up on giving old pointy ear the boot.

The man was basically Hitler in the 23rd century. He deserved to die. So did the Narada crew. There's no redemption for genocide.

 

[QuasarVM]

How so? Picard was better written and had a much more talented actor. Kirk is cool and I respect the TOS crew, but give credit where credit is due.

Picard is a good "Ambassador"...Kirk, being THE MAN...can be an ambassador, but if push comes to shove -- he'll kick arse.

That's why he's THE MAN.

I think if you analyze the record you will find Picard and Kirk's "asskicking" as you say to be more or less even. Except Picard has class and style while he does with perfect, or near perfect justification.

I would rather be on Picard's Enterprise any day of the week.

No way!

 

[QuasarVM]

I'm gonna have to go ahead and give the thumbs up on giving old pointy ear the boot.

The man was basically Hitler in the 23rd century. He deserved to die. So did the Narada crew. There's no redemption for genocide.

Damned straight! Sure shouldn't be...

 

[Cdr MacDuff]

Thumbs waaaay up.
Guess what. Picard and Janeway had their go at talking their enemies into submission. this is Kirk's Trek.
He is going to kick some alien ass and then he is coming for you.

Right, let's just turn Star Trek into Armor or Starship Troopers, won't we?

At least Starship Troopers there was some satire involved. That is human attacking the "Bug" planet because of meteorites...

Do you want to know more?

 

[commodore64]

Thumbs up. The bad guy was extremely lame and should never be seen again in a subsequent movie. Next film deserves a better nemesis.

 

[Feofilakt]

I'm gonna have to go ahead and give the thumbs up on giving old pointy ear the boot.

The man was basically Hitler in the 23rd century. He deserved to die. So did the Narada crew. There's no redemption for genocide.

I would argue even Hitler deserves a trial...

 

[Phantassm]

Nero kills 6 billion people by destroying Vulcan. Kills Spock's mom. Killed Kirk's dad. Orphans Kirk. Tried to destroy Earth. Was responsible for the death of more than a few Star Fleet officers along the way.

At this point:

Kirk offers Nero assistance. Nero spits back in his face he would rather die a thousand agonizing deaths than accept help. Kirk obliges.

I'm good with that.

I have to agree with this. Kirk offered the olive branch and Nero didn't want it. What was he suppose to do? The man was a threat-I say eliminate the threat. If Nero had accepted a surrender-Kirk and crew would have complied.

 

[Dream]

Nero and his crew killed billions of Vulcans. Glad Enterprise blew them up really good at the end.

 

[Bad Atom]

Offering to rescue him?
Okay.

Spock's response?
Hmm... okay.

Letting him die?
Okay.

Firing every weapon you have at him (even though he's going to be dead in a couple of minutes anyway) and endangering the ship in the process???
Really, really NOT okay.

 

[-Brett-]

I'm genuinely at a loss for what some people wanted from this scene.

Kirk offers Nero a chance to surrender. That's more than most people would have done. Considering his crimes, that's very damn generous.

Nero refuses, and Kirk has a choice. Cross his fingers and hope that the phenomenon he doesn't entirely understand takes care of the genocidal maniac and his near-invincible supership for him, even though it already failed to do so once. Or he can make sure.

Why do I get the feeling that if he'd picked the first one, the very same people would be complaining about Kirk's recklessness in risking billions of lives to chance?

 

[Gepard]

Why do I get the feeling that if he'd picked the first one, the very same people would be complaining about Kirk's recklessness in risking billions of lives to chance?

Well, it would depend on the execution. As things were set up, a rescue wouldn't have been really satisfying either. But they could have made it work if some of the preceding material were adjusted to better allow for such an ending (for one, make it so there were a more practical reason for Nero to be destroying Federation worlds, like, say, a 24th century war involving the Federation where Romulus was collateral damage or something that casts Nero in a more sympathetic/legitimate-victim light). I just think the movie could have been stronger for it if they'd subverted our expectations on the matter for the finale.

IMHO, of course.

ETA: that's not to say they should let Nero off the hook. I say rescue him and his crew, then try them for war crimes. Kirk and Spock would be material witnesses in the case, then, which would allow us to dodge the "immediate promotion" business; just flash forward a few years, establish that Kirk and Spock were reassigned during the trial, and now have been put back into rotation and assigned to the Enterprise.

 

[Silversmok3]

Offering to rescue him?
Okay.

Spock's response?
Hmm... okay.

Letting him die?
Okay.

Firing every weapon you have at him (even though he's going to be dead in a couple of minutes anyway) and endangering the ship in the process???
Really, really NOT okay.

To be honest that was the only way any ship of that time would have a chance duking it out against the Narada.I'd make sure that a ship capable of destroying mine in two passes died a through death.