Rank - Is Starfleet a Meritocracy? (Spoilers)

[Logical Leopard]

Okay, so if you've seen the movies or spoilers, you know that it appears that Kirk in this universe goes straight from being a cadet to a Captain at the end. Of course it's possible that he already received a comission or acting comission in the academy, like the Original Kirk (Kirk-A?) did. As I understand, Kirk got an acting commission in his first year as an Ensign, was a student teacher, and graduated as a full lieutenant. Even if he did the same thing offscreen here, that'd mean a jump of three ranks from Lieutenant to Captain.


But if either possibility is true, is there a case to believe that Starfleet is a meritocracy, in which rank goes more according to ability and accomplishment than a rigid system of experience, no matter how useful that experience is? Starfleet has clearly demonstrated some weird ranking examples, such as Harry Kim and Data's rank freeze, and Original Kirk's rank acceleration. Ten years out of the academy and a captain is still fast, by "our" standards. But if a person tests "off the charts" like Kirk, and is smart enough to be a student instructor before he leaves the academy in the Original Timeline, well then, if such an individual were to save, oh say...the planetary capitol of the Federation on top of that, it's probably not out of the reach to give this person a commission and a ship to go on a 5 year mission in

 

[Dark Gilligan]

Roddenberry said that in Starfleet rank was more of a job description than a rigid military title. That seems to fit his "humanistic" leanings.

 

[gastrof]

Someone also pointed out that a "Captain" could be of any rank. All it takes is being given command of a ship. At times a ship's captain might have a rank lower than someone with the rank Captain who comes on board.

Picard once left Geordi in charge, and someone with a higher rank kept bugging him to relinquish command to him. Apparently he couldn't just TAKE it.

Kirk may not be an actual Captain yet, but has proved he can command a starship in a horrible situation.

It's been suggested he didn't even have the rank of Captain yet in WNMHGB. Possibly was a commander at that time. This may be in keeping with something like that, tho' I doubt he'd jump from cadet to Captain.

Maybe Lieutenant? (Which means Spock still outranks him, but knowing Kirk that'll last about a month. Heh.)

 

[Nick Ryder]

Although was I was the only one who got a slight Starship Troopers vibe from the way commands were passed out. Like Pike was - "Kirk you're First Officer, Spock you're captain until you die or I find someone better." then Kirk took over and it was like "Kirk, you're captain till you die or you royally fuck up and we find someone better."

 

[Chaos Descending]

Someone also pointed out that a "Captain" could be of any rank. All it takes is being given command of a ship. At times a ship's captain might have a rank lower than someone with the rank Captain who comes on board.

Picard once left Geordi in charge, and someone with a higher rank kept bugging him to relinquish command to him. Apparently he couldn't just TAKE it.

Kirk may not be an actual Captain yet, but has proved he can command a starship in a horrible situation.

It's been suggested he didn't even have the rank of Captain yet in WNMHGB. Possibly was a commander at that time. This may be in keeping with something like that, tho' I doubt he'd jump from cadet to Captain.

Maybe Lieutenant? (Which means Spock still outranks him, but knowing Kirk that'll last about a month. Heh.)

At the end of the movie, they clearly refer to him as CAPTAIN James T. Kirk, when presenting him with his commendation and awarding him command of the Enterprise. In this context "Captain" was clearly his military rank and not his command position, especially since he didn't technically become Captain until a few minutes later when he official relieved Admiral Pike.

 

[Bishbot]

I think it must have simply been a decision based on extraordinary circumstances. I mean, he had nearly saved Vulcan in a highly dangerous combat mission, commanded a starship against an overwhelmingly powerful enemy, saved his captain and Earth, and got the ship home safely. Why make a guy like that pass through the ranks normally? What would be the point?

 

[urbandk]

Someone also pointed out that a "Captain" could be of any rank. All it takes is being given command of a ship. At times a ship's captain might have a rank lower than someone with the rank Captain who comes on board.

Picard once left Geordi in charge, and someone with a higher rank kept bugging him to relinquish command to him. Apparently he couldn't just TAKE it.

Kirk may not be an actual Captain yet, but has proved he can command a starship in a horrible situation.

It's been suggested he didn't even have the rank of Captain yet in WNMHGB. Possibly was a commander at that time. This may be in keeping with something like that, tho' I doubt he'd jump from cadet to Captain.

Maybe Lieutenant? (Which means Spock still outranks him, but knowing Kirk that'll last about a month. Heh.)

yeah, that would explain Kirk's two stripes in WNMHGB.

 

[Chaos Descending]

It would indeed, but WNMHGB is erased from history and Kirk is a Captain.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

These cadets were actually serving on a starship so I kind of assumed they were sort of at the "graduation" phase of their careers. Its more like an entry level guy getting promoted to manager based on extraordinary circumstances.

 

[clint g]

Yeah, the whole rank thingwas weired and didnt make much sense. Maybe the reason why ranks are being tossed around so easily is because a good chunck of the fleet got its asstorn apart in the whole Vulcan incident, so theyre running low on people

 

[Takomaguy]

Okay, so if you've seen the movies or spoilers, you know that it appears that Kirk in this universe goes straight from being a cadet to a Captain at the end. Of course it's possible that he already received a comission or acting comission in the academy, like the Original Kirk (Kirk-A?) did. As I understand, Kirk got an acting commission in his first year as an Ensign, was a student teacher, and graduated as a full lieutenant. Even if he did the same thing offscreen here, that'd mean a jump of three ranks from Lieutenant to Captain.


But if either possibility is true, is there a case to believe that Starfleet is a meritocracy, in which rank goes more according to ability and accomplishment than a rigid system of experience, no matter how useful that experience is? Starfleet has clearly demonstrated some weird ranking examples, such as Harry Kim and Data's rank freeze, and Original Kirk's rank acceleration. Ten years out of the academy and a captain is still fast, by "our" standards. But if a person tests "off the charts" like Kirk, and is smart enough to be a student instructor before he leaves the academy in the Original Timeline, well then, if such an individual were to save, oh say...the planetary capitol of the Federation on top of that, it's probably not out of the reach to give this person a commission and a ship to go on a 5 year mission in

Don't get me wrong, I thought Star Trek was great, but going from academic probation to commanding a starship was a bit much. There ain't that much meritocracy in the galaxy. I could see putting Kirk on the fast track. But with no experience whatsoever, you're looking for trouble promoting an officer way to fast. I the smart thing to do would be leaving Pike in command with Kirk and Spock both as lieutenants. It would have been interesting to see them learn from Pike.

It's stuff like this that makes me wonder how the Federation and Starfleet work. In real life, even an officer on a fast promotion track would still need to go to the war college. I'm sure Starfleet would have something like it. The war college provides valuable training. The other piece of this is security clearance. I imagine it would be pretty tough to get one with a cheating scandal hanging out there.

But hey, I didn't make a few mill this weekend so what do I know?

 

[erebus]

it is a meritocracy and i wished we had that today. But i think they have it because you are free to be an individual (see 'the savage curtain' where Uhura explains this) - and this in turn would recursively create institutions and attitudes in people that reinforced the meritocratic habit.

So you would end up with a society where people are not afraid to excel by being themselves and explore induvidial potential and not afraid to reliquish promotion as their system would promote the best people for the job automatically and with everyones agreement (since they all have a choice in how to they'd like to be).

The society would increasingly become rich and diverse with niches as people specialised and so it would ensure the continual survival of the species.

(the opposite monolithic unchanging unadapting attitude would probably speed up extinction).

Did you notice how despite any personal anomosity, the crew spoke with candour and honesty when they spoke about each others abilities?

So they would be more able to skip ranks easily, to fill positions with the best person for the job; more likely to have intuitively-correct people making those decisions (e.g Pike, Robau) who knew what they were doing when they did promote.

 

[stonester1]

Actually, I was under the impression that some time had passed between the end of the mission and the scene with Kirk's promotion. Pike an admiral AND confined to a whieelchair (perhaps he had commanded the Enterprise for some more years and things happened, including the Talos 4 mission as well as the exposure to Delta rays, which were slowly degenerating him)

Kirk is finally promoted to Captain a few years later and accepts command of the Enterprise.

We needed a caption reading "A few years later..."

"Buckle up!"

 

[David cgc]

Yeah, the whole rank thingwas weired and didnt make much sense. Maybe the reason why ranks are being tossed around so easily is because a good chunck of the fleet got its asstorn apart in the whole Vulcan incident, so theyre running low on people

That's what I assumed. They were already low on people, considering they needed to ship up cadets to crew the home fleet, and losing almost all of those ships couldn't have helped. Between whatever was occupying the rest of the fleet at the Laurentian system, the fact that the senior officers of the home fleet (plus the vast majority of the class of 2258) were all dead, and that the Enterprise's captain was a little crippled, Kirk was probably one of the only people with the aptitude to command a starship who was available. That's probably also how McCoy, Scott, Spock, and Uhura all managed to keep their temporary jobs on the ship.

 

[Bishbot]

Don't get me wrong, I thought Star Trek was great, but going from academic probation to commanding a starship was a bit much. There ain't that much meritocracy in the galaxy. I could see putting Kirk on the fast track. But with no experience whatsoever, you're looking for trouble promoting an officer way to fast. I the smart thing to do would be leaving Pike in command with Kirk and Spock both as lieutenants. It would have been interesting to see them learn from Pike.

It's stuff like this that makes me wonder how the Federation and Starfleet work. In real life, even an officer on a fast promotion track would still need to go to the war college. I'm sure Starfleet would have something like it. The war college provides valuable training. The other piece of this is security clearance. I imagine it would be pretty tough to get one with a cheating scandal hanging out there.

But hey, I didn't make a few mill this weekend so what do I know?

I think it was a little unlikely, but I would hardly say Kirk has "no experience" I think he probably gained more experience in the Nero incident than many Starfleet captains would have had in their entire commands.

 

[gastrof]

At the end of the movie, they clearly refer to him as CAPTAIN James T. Kirk, when presenting him with his commendation and awarding him command of the Enterprise. In this context "Captain" was clearly his military rank and not his command position, especially since he didn't technically become Captain until a few minutes later when he official relieved Admiral Pike.

I question this. The use of the word "Captain" could have been the making of a point that this guy was being put in command of the Enterprise, and would be a starship captain. (I know what you mean, but I'm looking for a logical explanation here....with a little "Trekker's fixit syndrome" thrown in.)

Were you able to catch any rank insignias of any kind? Stripes? Pins? Nose rings?

 

[Peter the Younger]

Don't get me wrong, I thought Star Trek was great, but going from academic probation to commanding a starship was a bit much. There ain't that much meritocracy in the galaxy. I could see putting Kirk on the fast track. But with no experience whatsoever, you're looking for trouble promoting an officer way to fast. I the smart thing to do would be leaving Pike in command with Kirk and Spock both as lieutenants. It would have been interesting to see them learn from Pike.

It's stuff like this that makes me wonder how the Federation and Starfleet work. In real life, even an officer on a fast promotion track would still need to go to the war college. I'm sure Starfleet would have something like it. The war college provides valuable training. The other piece of this is security clearance. I imagine it would be pretty tough to get one with a cheating scandal hanging out there.

But hey, I didn't make a few mill this weekend so what do I know?

Yeah, just about everything else in the movie I let slide pretty easily, but this one does stick in my craw a little bit (And I too, loved the movie.) I keep rolling it around in my head, thinking, "Did they all have to be cadets? Couldn't Kirk have been a Lt. returning to do "Command College?" Or alternately, couldn't they have left Pike in command as you described?

I mean, from a story standpoint, I know why they did it: a) the military rank jargon would have confused casual viewers, and b) the Paramount honchos no doubt wanted a "Captain Kirk" by the end of the movie (studio execs, rushing a story for marketing/franchise purposes? The hell you say!)

But it does strain credulity, and is maybe a wee bit insulting to real life military folks. In the real world, experience matters, and I don't care how talented a cadet is, he simply doesn't know enough to command a ship.

Didn't ruin the movie for me, not by a long shot, but it's always going to make me itch when I watch that last scene.

 

[Jolantru]

I know in the Navy, there is Captain the rank, and Captain the job. In fact it's often that someone, say in engineering could outrank the skipper, but will not be in command of the vessel. Also it's very true on smaller ships that a Lt. or Lt. Cmdr can be the skipper of a boat.

Also it should be noted in WWII, it was very common for officers to rise in rank quicky. I don't know about jumps like the one in the movie, but other than Admiral/General (which are pretty much political appointments more than ranks), one could rise very quickly in officer ranks back then.

It's mostly a case of need and nessesity. When waging a war like WWII, there was a great need for line officers and people in command authority.

 

[Chess Piece Face]

Don't forget that this is established that you can be an officer in 4 years and have your own ship in 8. So if that is the "regular level" of progression that is possible in this universe, then I don't see it being too unbelievable of a leap to get on board with the whole Captain Kirk thing considering

A - It was stated that he is genius level. So, you know, in tv, a kid like doogie houser can be a surgeon. This is the same type of thing. He's a genius.
B - He just saved Earth and the elders of Vulcan.
C - They are low on people due to a lot of the graduates getting killed at Vulcan.

Just remember - he's a genius, it's a movie...and you can be relatively ok with it.

 

[James Pike]

I think it is a combination of things. 1st, Pike gives Kirk a field promotion to 1st Officer right before they go on the sky diving mission, because Pike see's George Kirk in James Kirk. LAter when Kirk takes command of the ship by making Spock loose control he shows that he is willing to make the hard choices even if they hurt.
As far as the test, while I didn't like the way it was handled, it could be seen that after the Incident with Nero and that supposed "no win" situation, the test was seen as being flawed and that Kirk did take a no win situation and won, therefore validating his methods for passing the test.
It's been firmly placed in Trek that it is position before rank and that a field promotion sticks, meaning if a Captain made an Ensign, a Commander in the field due to some circumstance, Star Fleet will leave the person at that rank because they trust in the judgement of the Captains, Which is how Kirk, even as a cadet, but given a field position as 1st Officer of the Enterprise is able to leap frog to command.
Everyone was put into their roles because of the situation. McCoy was made Chief Medical officer because he was taking over in medical when the orginal CMO was killed in the attack. Uhura was givin the communications position because she proved she was better than the guy that was there.
Spock was already a Commander by rank so there is no issue here.