True about the number of people killed at Vulcan on ships. If the Kelvin a ship smaller than the Enterprise and the other ships that went to Vulcan had 800+ people aboard, there could have been 1,000 easily aboard each of the vessels that went there. So what, 7,000 crew and cadets were killed That's a pretty big number to replace.
Rank - Is Starfleet a Meritocracy? (Spoilers)
- Thread starter Logical Leopard
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True about the number of people killed at Vulcan on ships. If the Kelvin a ship smaller than the Enterprise and the other ships that went to Vulcan had 800+ people aboard, there could have been 1,000 easily aboard each of the vessels that went there. So what, 7,000 crew and cadets were killed That's a pretty big number to replace.
I think this was more out of the fact that Earth was in imminent danger... these kind of concerns tend to break down and leaders emerge.
Yes, Kirk was wearing the established TOS "Captain" rank braids.
Pike gave Kirk a battlefield commission, which is a captain's perogative, to First Officer knowing full well what he was capable of. When Spock resigned as acting captain, Kirk was next in line. After saving Earth, for the first of what would be several times, Starfleet made it official.
To those who bemoan Kirks fast rise from cadet to captain, I liken it to the NBA telling LeBron James, who went straight from HS to the NBA, he has to complete 4 years of NCAA basketball before he can join the NBA. It would be a complete waste of time because LeBron was a phenom and was better than most established NBA players. Kirk too is a phenom in his world, he's the LeBron James of Starfleet.
To those who bemoan Kirks fast rise from cadet to captain, I liken it to the NBA telling LeBron James, who went straight from HS to the NBA, he has to complete 4 years of NCAA basketball before he can join the NBA. It would be a complete waste of time because LeBron was a phenom and was better than most established NBA players. Kirk too is a phenom in his world, he's the LeBron James of Starfleet.
Captaining a Starship is not at all equivalent to playing basketball.
You've obviously missed the point I was making. Kirk was a phenom, he was too good to waste time working up the ranks when he already had captain level ability. Pike said there was a shortage of good Starfleet officers so I suppose Starfleet Command could have waived the requirement to work up the ranks.
Pretty much.
And as said, more often than not, the ranks in Starfleet have been more of a novelty than anything else.
Kirk showed himself to be all the man we know he is so Starfleet shrugged and gave the guy his ship.
It would've been "nice" if they allowed Pike to have his command and to "flash forward" a few years and then gave Kirk the ship, but they didn't so we have to deal with hit.
Kirk proved himself, so they gave him the ship.
(They should've had Pike inflicted with "delta radiation" during his torture on Nero's ship, incapacitating him. Hmmm. I wonder if Starfleet Medical ever found the Ceti/Centaruian Eel in him?)
Although I'm not sure what Trek examples about field promotions sticking you have, that's an interesting direction. I never noticed, and correct me if I'm wrong, but as for the crew of the Enterprise, did anyone get the impression that they were mostly cadets? I thought that they were supplementing a crew of officers already aboard, but they could have very well not even had a crew aboard other than a skeleton crew, since it was in spacedock. And they were scrambling a LOT of cadets, it looked like.
If they're all cadets, except for some key personnel (Chief Olsen, the CMO, etc), then it would be perfectly logical for Pike to appoint Kirk, who's a talented cadet, and more importantly, a senior cadet, to a First Officer position. And performing in that position, the feats that he did, he could have kept the equivalent ranking (If a first officer on a Constitution class is a Commander, usually), and got another uptick to Captain. And yes, he was a Captain in rank, not in position, due to the rank insignia. If you look at the trailer, and pause it before Kirk slaps Spock's back at the end, you'll see the insignia.
This makes it better for me. Not to say I was outraged, I mean, this is the same show that brought Spock back to life by shooting him into a planet being born that somehow reverted him back to a baby and made him back into a man without eating a bite. Just saying.
The new thread about Kirk's promotion making sense got me thinking about this one.
With regards to Starfleet being a "Meritocracy"...
Sorry if someone else already said it, but isn't that what organizations having rank and promotions ARE? You get promoted based on what you've shown yourself to be, and what you've shown you can do?
I mean, what else is a promotion but a reward for (and recognition of) merit?
Admittedly, promoting a CADET to the rank of CAPTAIN immediately is a little odd, to say the least, but that's not really what this thread is questioning, is it?
Don't we already KNOW that any such organization as Starfleet WOULD be a "Meritocracy"? (Maybe I just don't know the actual definition of the word.)
With regards to Starfleet being a "Meritocracy"...
Sorry if someone else already said it, but isn't that what organizations having rank and promotions ARE? You get promoted based on what you've shown yourself to be, and what you've shown you can do?
I mean, what else is a promotion but a reward for (and recognition of) merit?
Admittedly, promoting a CADET to the rank of CAPTAIN immediately is a little odd, to say the least, but that's not really what this thread is questioning, is it?
Don't we already KNOW that any such organization as Starfleet WOULD be a "Meritocracy"? (Maybe I just don't know the actual definition of the word.)
I know they're not used any more but I remember reading once about Brevet ranks back in the old days. A lower ranking officer would end up in a command position and be given the rank of Brevet Captain while their actual rank would be lieutenant or whatever. Scratching my head to come up with some examples. Maybe on Wikipedia or something...
It already is a job description. That's why this argument makes little sense to me. Rank is also a meritocracy, so this also makes no sense to me
They still do something like this do this day. For example, I'm a Second Lieutenant but I'm my companies XO since there is a lack of signal officers. Its usually a First Lieutenant's job. My Company Commander is a First Lieutenant even though that's usually a Captains slot
one point that's being overlooked - James T. Kirk (prime) once held the record for the youngest captain in Starfleet so in established Trek lore (prior to Trek XI) he'd either skipped several ranks or he'd raced through them and I think there were several referenecs over the years to some very four pip captains.
While true, it seems incredibly unlikely that he would skip every rank
I think we are thinking too much in 21st century terms and assuming Starfleet is operated like a modern day 20th/21st century nation-state military. Starfleet is not a military per say as we understand it.
While, like shown on ST:TNG et al, promotion through ranks usually takes time - remember that Starfleet was pretty much wiped out at Vulcan and all they had was a crippled Captain Pike, so why not do a battlefield promotion of cadet Kirk - I think something like that could of happened if a couple of centuries ago - "Hey - Midshipman Kirk, Scotland just blew up and most of the Royal Navy with it, but you did a good job saving England so the HMS Victory is yours since you captained her so well during the crisis"
While, like shown on ST:TNG et al, promotion through ranks usually takes time - remember that Starfleet was pretty much wiped out at Vulcan and all they had was a crippled Captain Pike, so why not do a battlefield promotion of cadet Kirk - I think something like that could of happened if a couple of centuries ago - "Hey - Midshipman Kirk, Scotland just blew up and most of the Royal Navy with it, but you did a good job saving England so the HMS Victory is yours since you captained her so well during the crisis"
Far as I see it...Pike's ship and hes Admiral now so he chooses who takes his ship 
saves the Earth, great cadet (score wise) and with experienced officer as backup in Spock then theres no cause for concern with Kirk having the big chair. However in sequel I would love al ine about how some brass in Starfleet were against Kirk getting command.
saves the Earth, great cadet (score wise) and with experienced officer as backup in Spock then theres no cause for concern with Kirk having the big chair. However in sequel I would love al ine about how some brass in Starfleet were against Kirk getting command.
True but nobody addresses that 1st LT company commander as "Captain". In the US they normally didn't give brevet ranks after the Civil War. Where a regular officer could become the Colonel of a Volunteer Regiment and if he survived after the war went back down to his permanent rank. I remember my First Sergeant said he held a reserve commision and could be promoted in case of WWIII breaking out. The best example would be General Custer, even if he demanded those he did not outrank to call him "general" he died a Lieutenant Colonel.
I've been think perhaps we should re-look what Starfleet Academy is. Perhaps a "cadet"s already an officer. Such as Lt Saavik taking the Kobahashi Maru test. My real life example would be the US Army Ranger School. There all ranks come off it doesn't matter whether you are a PFC from a Ranger battalion or a Captain on his way to higher command, at ranger School all are the same and whoever the instructor puts in charge is the leader. So a Kirk, eventhough he is a "Cadet"' can be named Second Officer. McCoy can become Chief Medical Officer or an Ensign Kim can be assigned as Operations Officer of Voyager straight out of the academy.
In the first episode of "Voyager," Tom Paris went from prisoner in a Federation penal colony to a Lieutenant and helmsman of the Voyager. (Paris had certain skills that made him valuable, and his father was a respected Starfleet officer.)
If Janeway, Tuvok, and Chakotay had died in the first episode of "Voyager," Paris would have been Captain one week out of prison.
That's not too far removed from Kirk's story in this movie.
If Janeway, Tuvok, and Chakotay had died in the first episode of "Voyager," Paris would have been Captain one week out of prison.
That's not too far removed from Kirk's story in this movie.
That's not really what brevet rank was, but is a common misconception. Brevet ranks were a way of using promotion to a higher grade as a reward for valor or outstanding service, without upsetting the whole rank structure. An officer had the permanent rank that went with his position in his unit, but had a higher brevet rank that he could use off-duty, socially, or when assigned away from his regiment. Brevet rank did not increase pay, and normally did not confer greater authority. Some officers wore the uniform of their brevet rank, but most commanding officers frowned on this. Even with these limitations, brevet promotions caused a lot of confusion, ill-feeling, and litigation.
Toward the end of the American Civil War, brevet ranks were handed out so abundantly they lost what little meaning they had. In the 1870s new laws eliminated the few occasions where brevet ranks actually carried authority and they became completely honorary. The issue still caused trouble, and creates confusion to this day. There was even a short period in 1872 when the regulations permitted an officer to wear his brevet rank insignia on his collar and his permanent rank on his shoulders! By the 1900s it was realized that rewarding deserving individuals with decorations and medals was a lot more effective and efficient than giving promotions in grade.
As for junior officers commanding larger units, that is common when the armed forces are greatly expanded in wartime. Permanently promoting large numbers to the higher ranks needed in wartime would cause a lot of problems when the force is downsized in peacetime, so war promotions are made on a temporary basis. In the Civil War, most promotions were made in the US Volunteers, the state-raised forces called into federal service. There were similar arrangements with wartime organizations in WW1 (National Army) and WW2 (Army of the US). After the war was over, the wartime structures were disestablished, and those staying in the service would revert to their permanent grade.
--Justin
If Kirk was promoted straight to Captain based upon his actions here, how come Spock didn't ALSO get a ship? Uhura was a big part of the solution, but got stuck at Lieutennant? That sucks. Chekov must have REALY pissed someone off, as he helped out a lot, plus saved a lot of lives and got stuck as an Ensign.
As for giving Kirk the full promotion and the ship? Seems like when the rest of the fleet got done, there's probably a Commander on one of those ships that's pretty pissed off. Putting in years of duty, proving himselve several times over, and getting passed over for a cadet (and one on probation at that?)!
Kirk getting promoted all the way to Captain and being handed the keys to the flagship based upon a few hours of good decisions stretches any credibility. If it was the only ship left in the fleet, and the rest of the fleet was wiped out, it sure makes sense, but since there are other ships and crews out there, it's retarded. Best case, one of the seasoned Captains would get the Enterprise, and Kirk gets offered the opportunity to stay on as a Lt or Lt Commander and learn from there, or gets given the keys to a smaller ship and a chance to prove himself out there.
As for giving Kirk the full promotion and the ship? Seems like when the rest of the fleet got done, there's probably a Commander on one of those ships that's pretty pissed off. Putting in years of duty, proving himselve several times over, and getting passed over for a cadet (and one on probation at that?)!
Kirk getting promoted all the way to Captain and being handed the keys to the flagship based upon a few hours of good decisions stretches any credibility. If it was the only ship left in the fleet, and the rest of the fleet was wiped out, it sure makes sense, but since there are other ships and crews out there, it's retarded. Best case, one of the seasoned Captains would get the Enterprise, and Kirk gets offered the opportunity to stay on as a Lt or Lt Commander and learn from there, or gets given the keys to a smaller ship and a chance to prove himself out there.
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