B5: Objects at Rest...I don't know if I like it

[Elemental]

That's a good point. Would we really understand what Emperor Vir meant when he said that despite 'all the things that he (Londo) did', he still missed him without having seen him deliver a Keeper to his friends disguised as a gift?

I'm sorry, but I just can't parse this sentence.

What?

Sorry. It was in response to Thor Damar posting that this episode sets up 'Sleeping in Light' really well. My thought was that if we hadn't seen Londo leaving the Keeper in the urn for Sheridan and Delenn's child, we wouldn't have understood what Vir meant when he said that he missed Londo 'despite everything he'd done'. Up to that point we hadn't seen anything that the Keeper had forced Londo to do. Having seen Londo do something like that to his friends gave a clear indication of just how much control the Keeper could exert on him. So even though we never see Londo acting against the best interest of Centauri Prime, it's easier for us to accept that there were incidents that Vir was thinking of when he made that toast.

Jan

Why on earth would you signal out that one single event in particular as being necessary to understand Vir's line about 'all that Londo had done'? Have you forgotten about Londo agreeing to devastate the Narn homeworld, arranging to have a fleet of Narn ships destroyed by Shadows, occupying Narn, threatening to attack B5 if they didn't turn over the surviving Narn ship seeking sanctuary, etc, etc, etc. I think those events count too. The Keeper doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

[Sky]

I loved this episode and thought that Lennier's betrayal was a long time in coming.

I totally agree. I found it fit the series well.
I really liked it that B5 was not afraid to have its main characters be tempted and stray. B5 folks were not one-dimensional in the least.

 

[Jan]

Why on earth would you signal out that one single event in particular as being necessary to understand Vir's line about 'all that Londo had done'? Have you forgotten about Londo agreeing to devastate the Narn homeworld, arranging to have a fleet of Narn ships destroyed by Shadows, occupying Narn, threatening to attack B5 if they didn't turn over the surviving Narn ship seeking sanctuary, etc, etc, etc. I think those events count too. The Keeper doesn't have anything to do with it.

You know...I don't know. Somehow I always just assumed that Vir was referring to things that Londo had done while emperor. How odd...thanks for pointing that out.

Jan

 

[RoJoHen]

I'm sorry, but I just can't parse this sentence.

What?

Sorry. It was in response to Thor Damar posting that this episode sets up 'Sleeping in Light' really well. My thought was that if we hadn't seen Londo leaving the Keeper in the urn for Sheridan and Delenn's child, we wouldn't have understood what Vir meant when he said that he missed Londo 'despite everything he'd done'. Up to that point we hadn't seen anything that the Keeper had forced Londo to do. Having seen Londo do something like that to his friends gave a clear indication of just how much control the Keeper could exert on him. So even though we never see Londo acting against the best interest of Centauri Prime, it's easier for us to accept that there were incidents that Vir was thinking of when he made that toast.

Jan

Why on earth would you signal out that one single event in particular as being necessary to understand Vir's line about 'all that Londo had done'? Have you forgotten about Londo agreeing to devastate the Narn homeworld, arranging to have a fleet of Narn ships destroyed by Shadows, occupying Narn, threatening to attack B5 if they didn't turn over the surviving Narn ship seeking sanctuary, etc, etc, etc. I think those events count too. The Keeper doesn't have anything to do with it.

Yeah, I never even considered the Keeper when Vir was talking about that. We saw Londo do enough shitty things throughout the course of the series well before the Drahk took control over him.

 

[Elemental]

Why on earth would you signal out that one single event in particular as being necessary to understand Vir's line about 'all that Londo had done'? Have you forgotten about Londo agreeing to devastate the Narn homeworld, arranging to have a fleet of Narn ships destroyed by Shadows, occupying Narn, threatening to attack B5 if they didn't turn over the surviving Narn ship seeking sanctuary, etc, etc, etc. I think those events count too. The Keeper doesn't have anything to do with it.

You know...I don't know. Somehow I always just assumed that Vir was referring to things that Londo had done while emperor. How odd...thanks for pointing that out.

Jan

No problem. Sorry if that came across as a bit rude... as I reread it I thought it maybe sounded a little harsh. I was just genuinely puzzled.

Sorry. It was in response to Thor Damar posting that this episode sets up 'Sleeping in Light' really well. My thought was that if we hadn't seen Londo leaving the Keeper in the urn for Sheridan and Delenn's child, we wouldn't have understood what Vir meant when he said that he missed Londo 'despite everything he'd done'. Up to that point we hadn't seen anything that the Keeper had forced Londo to do. Having seen Londo do something like that to his friends gave a clear indication of just how much control the Keeper could exert on him. So even though we never see Londo acting against the best interest of Centauri Prime, it's easier for us to accept that there were incidents that Vir was thinking of when he made that toast.

Jan

Why on earth would you signal out that one single event in particular as being necessary to understand Vir's line about 'all that Londo had done'? Have you forgotten about Londo agreeing to devastate the Narn homeworld, arranging to have a fleet of Narn ships destroyed by Shadows, occupying Narn, threatening to attack B5 if they didn't turn over the surviving Narn ship seeking sanctuary, etc, etc, etc. I think those events count too. The Keeper doesn't have anything to do with it.

Yeah, I never even considered the Keeper when Vir was talking about that. We saw Londo do enough shitty things throughout the course of the series well before the Drahk took control over him.

Plus there was the fact that SiL was written and filmed at a time when they weren't even sure there would be a season 5, so writing a line that vaguely refers to an event people didn't even know existed (even if it had already been thunk up in JMS's head) wouldn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Elemental]

I loved this episode and thought that Lennier's betrayal was a long time in coming.

I totally agree. I found it fit the series well.
I really liked it that B5 was not afraid to have its main characters be tempted and stray. B5 folks were not one-dimensional in the least.

And I also feel that it was much more dramatic than the coincidental dual would-be assassins from OIM which others have referenced in comparisson. Staging a goodbye party for G'Kar in order to catch the assassin who was after Garibaldi?? Come on... Almost as bad as the double-attempted assassination of Sheridan in the season 5 premiere - "Well, it's sure a good thing that assassin failed to kill me. Too bad about the dead kid and security guard and the fact that the assassin is still on the loose... Anyhow, let's just move the ceremony to a different room and try again."

 

[Angel4576]

Never had a problem with the final batch of episodes. For me, I wouldn't have done any of the final episode any differently.

The ending to the series always reminded me of the end of the Lord of the Rings novels. I appreciate it when series take the time to ensure that all of the character stuff is wrapped up neatly. It's not just a case of wham, bam, credits. B5, like LotR before it, wound itself down to the credits (or the end of the book).

As others have said, OaR, understated, but brilliant.

 

[JoeD80]

And I also feel that it was much more dramatic than the coincidental dual would-be assassins from OIM which others have referenced in comparisson. Staging a goodbye party for G'Kar in order to catch the assassin who was after Garibaldi?? Come on...

It was based on *a real life story*, which I can't remember the details of, but it's in the script book, where they were concentrating on protecting one important person and another person got killed. So maybe it seems implausible, but it actually happened.

Almost as bad as the double-attempted assassination of Sheridan in the season 5 premiere - "Well, it's sure a good thing that assassin failed to kill me. Too bad about the dead kid and security guard and the fact that the assassin is still on the loose... Anyhow, let's just move the ceremony to a different room and try again."

This was Sheridan's whole point again and again in the episode. To not live in fear no matter what, and to keep things going no matter what. He was trying to make a point. Sure you could say it's stupid, but that's the way Sheridan is. Not a flaw of the episode, it's a flaw of Sheridan. And Sheridan *did* talk to Byron about the kid getting killed at the end of the episode, and because he was helped by the kid it's one of the factors that convinced Sheridan to let the telepaths live at Babylon 5 even though Lochley didn't think it was a good idea. I don't remember any security guards dying (although it's been a bit since I've seen the episode); the other two dead in the episode are the Ranger and the Gaim.

 

[Elemental]

And I also feel that it was much more dramatic than the coincidental dual would-be assassins from OIM which others have referenced in comparisson. Staging a goodbye party for G'Kar in order to catch the assassin who was after Garibaldi?? Come on...

It was based on *a real life story*, which I can't remember the details of, but it's in the script book, where they were concentrating on protecting one important person and another person got killed. So maybe it seems implausible, but it actually happened.

Just because it's based on reality doesn't make it good. I thought it was a bit silly that Lise was on the stage for a goodbye to G'Kar anyways. I'm not saying it was an awful plot but certainly not near the top the show has done.

Almost as bad as the double-attempted assassination of Sheridan in the season 5 premiere - "Well, it's sure a good thing that assassin failed to kill me. Too bad about the dead kid and security guard and the fact that the assassin is still on the loose... Anyhow, let's just move the ceremony to a different room and try again."

This was Sheridan's whole point again and again in the episode. To not live in fear no matter what, and to keep things going no matter what. He was trying to make a point. Sure you could say it's stupid, but that's the way Sheridan is. Not a flaw of the episode, it's a flaw of Sheridan. And Sheridan *did* talk to Byron about the kid getting killed at the end of the episode, and because he was helped by the kid it's one of the factors that convinced Sheridan to let the telepaths live at Babylon 5 even though Lochley didn't think it was a good idea. I don't remember any security guards dying (although it's been a bit since I've seen the episode); the other two dead in the episode are the Ranger and the Gaim.

I don't care how persistent Sheridan is, it's just not believable. After two people died the whole positive focus of the event would be completely lost. Who in that audience is going to be focusing on the ceremony and not too busy anxiously thinking "Gee, those poor souls were murdered... What if it had been me? What if I'm next?" Can you imagine if at your wedding, a guest had just been murdered in front of your eyes and the killer runs off, to then go on with the joyous ceremony per usual and smiling just as big? It's a slap in the face to the people who just died to go on celebrating and the event would never be remembered in the positive way that is desired.

 

[Jan]

^^ But it wasn't just a celebration, it was an inauguration. Inauguations and coronations aren't something that you postpone. Remember, it was the beginning of an entire Interstellar Alliance, not just a celebration over a promotion. G'Kar may have distilled it into the simplest form possible but the swearing-in did still take place.

Jan

 

[Tulin]

Never had a problem with the final batch of episodes. For me, I wouldn't have done any of the final episode any differently.

The ending to the series always reminded me of the end of the Lord of the Rings novels. I appreciate it when series take the time to ensure that all of the character stuff is wrapped up neatly. It's not just a case of wham, bam, credits. B5, like LotR before it, wound itself down to the credits (or the end of the book).

As others have said, OaR, understated, but brilliant.

Indeed.

I said it at the time and I will sat it again - the final four-five episodes of B5 reminded me very much of the last few weeks of "MASH". Characters left one by one. had a chance to say proper farewells and got their moment in the spotlight.

It was extremely moving in both series and I loved it all.

 

[JoeD80]

I don't care how persistent Sheridan is, it's just not believable.

How persistent Sheridan is is the whole point! Others asked if he'd postpone the ceremony after the event with the telepath Simon and the fake Gaim and it was Sheridan who said "no, we're not going to postpone it."

 

[Neroon]

Indeed.

I said it at the time and I will sat it again - the final four-five episodes of B5 reminded me very much of the last few weeks of "MASH". Characters left one by one. had a chance to say proper farewells and got their moment in the spotlight.

It was extremely moving in both series and I loved it all.

IMHO, just as significantly.... it gives the fan a chance to say goodbye to these characters as well. I'm always one to point out that these are fictional beings, but when you spend enough time watching the episodes - so often over and over - you tend to build a connection to that universe. Being able to "say goodbye" however metaphorically is a nice gift.

 

[Sakrysta]

^I think it's that feeling of connection that makes people hate the end of Lennier's story so much. We've all come to love and respect him so, that to see him written to behave in such a way just hurts. I was so disappointed to remember him that way.

 

[Neroon]

Technically, while it may have been the end of Lennier's arc, we have no idea what happened between the events in "Objects At Rest" and "Sleeping In Light". Lennier did promise he would redeem himself in Delenn's eyes, and he was always one to keep promises.

 

[Jan]

Technically, while it may have been the end of Lennier's arc, we have no idea what happened between the events in "Objects At Rest" and "Sleeping In Light".

We do know a little even though we haven't seen it as part of the 'documentary'.

Spoiler: Crusade

In the early drafts of "The Path of Sorrows" and confirmed in the script books, Lennier would have been involved with Lyta's side in the Telepath War and would have been killed in the bombing of the Psi Corps headquarters.

Jan

 

[Mr Light]

^ Hey, I never heard that before! I only knew he died in that period, not what he was actually doing. That doesn't sound like a very noble ending. I was hoping that he would appear out of the blue to save Delenn's life from certain death, sacrificing himself in the process.

 

[Sky]

^ Hey, I never heard that before! I only knew he died in that period, not what he was actually doing. That doesn't sound like a very noble ending. I was hoping that he would appear out of the blue to save Delenn's life from certain death, sacrificing himself in the process.

Not everyone can have a heroic death.

 

[Jan]

^ Hey, I never heard that before! I only knew he died in that period, not what he was actually doing. That doesn't sound like a very noble ending. I was hoping that he would appear out of the blue to save Delenn's life from certain death, sacrificing himself in the process.

It wasn't ignoble, though.

Spoiler: Crusade

Before it had to be rewritten, the telepath in "Path of Sorrows" was Lyta Alexander and he died fighting at her side.

Not knowing the context, we can only hope that he was redeemed.

Jan

 

[Mr Light]

While I always liked Lyta, I felt that the back half of S5 started to paint her as an antagonistic figure, to the point that she started to become less sympathetic a character. The thought of Lyta going to war with the PsiCorps (and thus starting that conflict)... I dunno. PsiCorps is evil and all but she seems to be becoming the evil she fights against. And also, what would Lennier's motivation be to work with Lyta? Did they even have a scene together in the entire show? He also has no motivation to fight the PsiCorps, unless he's just looking for ANY cause to die fighting for.