Poll: Janeway & Gender

[rfmcdpei]

But the point was that in this case a completely logical argument could be made that Janeway's behavior, repeatedly shown on screen, through consistent and logical application of the Trek universe, did indeed result in her death...that in that sense, she DID deserve it. Just because she's a woman, we're not allowed to point that out?

Dude. I often walk home late from the library at night, through dark deserted streets. I know that it's possible that sooner or later I might have cause to regret this, but I continue to do it.

If that results in my rape and murder, did I deserve it?

Janeway did the equivalent of walking down the street every night, but engaging in mortal combat with the various street gangs she met on the way home, night after night.

A lot of people compare Janeway to Kirk, but while Janeway did take more risks than Picard she also took more risks than Kirk. Kirk's only instance of technological theft occurred in "The Enterprise Incident" in relationship to the Romulans' cloaking device. He didn't take advantage of his presence in Romulan space to assassinate the Senate. He certainly didn't keep returning to the Romulan frontier looking for a fight!

 

[Hoshi_Mayweather]

Hoshi, I'm loath to suggest it - as it seems a bit like letting Trek off the hook - but demographically Thrawn has a point. Like me, lot of women are reading women SF writers these days because they seem to be more focused on rounded female protagonists. I know I haven't read a lot of SF by Asian (apart from the odd piece by Kobo Abe, whose Inter Ice Age was cool as) or black writers, reflecting their particular demographics... but I'd be interested in it! Perhaps anyone with suggestions of authors writing those kinds of SF stories could post 'em somewhere...

Good post.

I think I was looking at 'Trekkieguy's' Star Trek book reviews and found that many of Trek's authors were women...(Tying that with our topic, I do think Kristen Beyer may give us a good book in 'Full Circle').

Black writers I'm aware of, who write sci-fi:
*Nalo Hopinkinson
*Steven Barnes
*Octavia Butler
_____________
*Billy Dee Williams
*Nichelle Nichols
*Michael Dorn
*LeVar Burton

Hmmm, I'm not aware of the Asian-American writers who write sci-fi; I'm only aware of one:
*Laurence Yep (who wrote the Trek novel 'Shadow Lord')

Sorry to double-post, but I'm afraid if I edit my previous one, this will get lost. What I'm trying to say is that most of what we now consider essential to understanding this race or that one would be as distant and...foreign to Sulu or Uhura as it is to me. I might actually know more about relocation camps than Sulu - you never know. I at least have met people who were in one.

You're right. In Trek's future era, the only race would be 'human'...and humans would be differentiated by their ethnicity and/or where they were born: For example, an Asian-Martian, or specifically a Vietnamese-Martian...one who is Vietnamese but born on Mars.

David Gerrold actually had a Japanese-Martian in his Star Wolf novel...

In DS9, I thought it was funny that sometimes Sisko seemed to be written (and portrayed) as a 20th century black man, where 'our culture' would be foreign to him being a 24th century individual.

I do understand Avery Brooks' insistence that his character (Sisko) would return after spending time with the prophets; this was based on his experiences as an African-American.

 

[Therin of Andor]

a number of fans that don't come here because they would be treated with the same disrespect you are treating me. But you all just go right ahead. You are proving that point over and over again.

Enough Brit!

I am not disrespecting you at all. Unless merely disagreeing with you, or disputing your methods for debating, is showing you disrespect. As you've seen, the regulars on this board don't always agree with each other either. As I've tried to point out, several of my favourite ST characters have been killed off over the years. Within you is the power to respect yourself, and allow yourself to relax... and wait for Janeway's inevitable resurrection.

In the meantime, you'll miss out on whatever stories Kirsten Beyer has crafted about how VOY characters deal with grief and the loss of a respected captain. Your choice. We respect your right to do so.

If your friends can't come here because they are scared that people might disagree with them, perhaps they are wise to stay away. But their votes don't count until they stand up to be counted. Don't speak on their behalf. It's rather hard to respect faceless people who constantly worry that they might not be accepted, and are thus not even willing to try. But if they don't read ST tie-ins beyond Janeway-centric stories anyway, then they'll have little in common with us who are more ecclectic. That's hardly our fault.

It can't be much fun to feel at odds with so many people who, allegedly, continually disrespect you, Brit. But certainly, keep playing the martyr if you feel the need. I respect your right to do so.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Gender discrimination is out there, and Trek fans aren't immune. It's why killing off the most visible woman leader in Trek has hacked off some Janeway fans

I'm sorry, but there would be gnashing of teeth - by women - if Pocket Books issued a media release that Janeway was to be isolated as a special case: the one Star Trek regular character who can never be killed off... because to kill or permanently maim her would be gender discrimination.

Therin has a problem when I say we, but I can't say it any other way because there is a we and it's attitudes just like the ones you all express here, by pulling out one statement and ignoring others, by making fun of me and thereby making fun of the people I represent.

Brit, when I first came to this board I often spoke of "we" - people I knew with certain opinions about Star Trek, which I found interesting and worth sharing, but I was constantly told to speak only for myself, since it was so easy to pretend I was speaking for two, twenty, two hundred or two thousand ST fans when I said "we". Just trying to share a tip. It is possible to just speak for yourself. Let your friends go unrepresented till they choose to be brave.

 

[captcalhoun]

some people are seriously reading WAY too much in to Star Trek. it's a fucking action-adventure TV series that was supposed to slightly more intelligent than was the norm for the 60s and to make the creator some money. reading ANYTHING more than that into it is OTT. the fact that Roddenberry started believing his own press and blathering all that socialist-utopia bullshit is by-the-by, Trek was created to get ratings and make money. THAT is all Paramount cares about. cuz if they cared about anything more they wouldn't have greenlight that thing they've got coming out on May 8.

 

[Therin of Andor]

reading ANYTHING more than that into it is OTT. the fact that Roddenberry started believing his own press and blathering all that socialist-utopia bullshit is by-the-by.

"The Making of Star Trek" was being written during the second season of TOS, and it has numerous examples of what Roddenberry hoped he could achieve through science fiction TV scripts.

 

[Thrawn]

Yeah, captcalhoun... I think you're exaggerating juuuust a little bit here. Roddenberry had a particular philosophy he wanted to convey; yes, he wanted to make money, but it was by being socially conscious and asking tricky moral dilemmas. He got some unbelievable things by the 1960s censors, just by setting it in outer space among aliens.

As for that thing, how do YOU know it doesn't ask complicated moral questions? Wrath Of Khan did, and you wouldn't have been able to tell from previews.

 

[kimc]

Real life conversations, for one - I think I've previously mentioned when Voyager first came out, and a couple of Trek fans I knew were not impressed - according to them, no woman could ever captain a starship. You can bet dollars to doughnuts that they were holding her to different standards - that's the way the world works for the vast majority of women.

I remember having some of those conversations myself. Also, as a woman working in a field dominated by men I know for a fact that I'm held to a different standard than my colleagues. It IS the way the world works and I choose to acknowledge that without making myself miserable about it. It is what it is.

Lucky for me I can escape occassionally into the world of Trek where one of my favorite characters is a woman captain who... oh, yeah never mind. At least there's still fanfiction!

Hell, just recently in one of the "which captain is best" polls in General Discussions, one poster, apparently trying to be fair, listed the best points of each captain as reasons for why they would want to meet/serve with them. All TV captains bar one were assessed on intellect and command ability. That one was assessed only in terms of social and sexual attractiveness. Want to guess which one? (Hint: it wasn't one of the men.)

Could we have another clue please?

Gender discrimination is out there, and Trek fans aren't immune. It's why killing off the most visible woman leader in Trek has hacked off some Janeway fans - there's enough discrimination out there, that the tearing down of one of the few strong role models in media with worldwide access, in a show that claims to be about hope, in a truly horrible way (violated to death, while the most powerful being in the known universe looks on and mocks) is, well, not hopeful. Let's not even get into the argument that she "deserved it".

Bad enough that she died but seriously - who thought that death was a good idea? True, at least the floor didn't assume the shape of a Borg phallus and actually rape her to death (she deserved it for not doing what she was told!), but to me the similarity was still fairly fucking plain - if you'll excuse the pun.

Now I'm even happier I did the bookstore flip without purchasing. I have no desire to read a sci-fi version of some guys "Janway snuff fantasy".

Anyway, great post Octavia. I couldn't have said it better myself. (Actually, if I could have I would have a while back!)

 

[rfmcdpei]

Now I'm even happier I did the bookstore flip without purchasing. I have no desire to read a sci-fi version of some guys "Janway snuff fantasy".

Your use of "snuff fantasy" in this specific context is ridiculous. Just saying.

Question: Do Picard's assimilations by the Borg, one involuntary and one voluntary, reflect some sort of homoerotic/homophobic rape scenario on the part of his writers?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Bad enough that she died but seriously - who thought that death was a good idea?

A woman. Named Margaret Clark. Who leads a team of editors at Pocket Books.

In a manuscript approved by a woman. Paula Block. Who leads a team of licensing people at CBS Consumer Products.

Who are both members of Star Trek "first fandom", and grew up among in the ranks of those early fanfic writers and conventioneers of the late 60s/early 70s. And have been involved professionally with Star Trek since the 80s.

 

[Trent Roman]

Your use of "snuff fantasy" in this specific context is ridiculous. Just saying.

No, it really isn't.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[captcalhoun]

yes. it. really. is.

 

[Trent Roman]

Do you even know what a snuff fantasy is? Scenario in which a person is killed which is designed to elicit pleasure, generally the more torturous the manner of the (habitually female) victim's death the better. Given the sheer glee with which Janeway's death was written, and the immense satisfaction it appears to have rendered her detractors, I'd say it certainly qualifies as a snuff fantasy from that perspective.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[captcalhoun]

...

no, you know what? i'm not even going there.

 

[Trent Roman]

I'm not saying it was intentional, and it certainly won't appear as such to those who felt the work did right by the character, but with all due respect, rfmcdpei is wrong to dismiss it as a ludicrous suggestion: it's actually quite easy to see how it could function in such a role.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Therin of Andor]

the immense satisfaction it appears to have rendered her detractors

Why does everyone keep suggesting that people who happen to approve of Janeway's death in "Before Dishonor" are thus Janeway "detractors"?

 

[kimc]

the immense satisfaction it appears to have rendered her detractors

Why does everyone keep suggesting that people who happen to approve of Janeway's death in "Before Dishonor" are thus Janeway "detractors"?

That is not at all what he is suggesting. Not to speak for him but I can't see how you would read that from his post.

 

[rfmcdpei]

I'm not saying it was intentional, and it certainly won't appear as such to those who felt the work did right by the character, but with all due respect, rfmcdpei is wrong to dismiss it as a ludicrous suggestion: it's actually quite easy to see how it could function in such a role.

You can interpret it as that if you'd want to, although the evidence in support of that seems weak to me: Janeway is dominated to the same extent and in the same way as other characters, like Picard, and she wasn't singled out because of her gender identity. in Before Dishonor, Janeway was assimilated by the Borg and eventually died as a consequence of personality traits which had been established on the show. The misogyny of the novel is even more questionable, sionce it's another woman, Seven of Nine, who takes the initiative and ends up saving civilization from the Borg.

People who are determined to see it as a snuff fantasy can find ways, true, but that's a minority taste, hopefully only a very small minority's : I certainly hope that few people derived any kind of sexual thrill from it!

This brings me to the very tendentious use of the term "snuff fantasy." We all know the sort of activities that would fit into a snuff fantasy. One thing that the use of the term in relationship to a particular scenario implies is that anyone of good faith who witnesses it will recognize it as a snuff fantasy, and that only people of bad faith will deny this.

Saying that Before Dishonor might have been written unintentionally as a snuff scenario, or that the scenario might not have been created as with malign intent, says a lot of very unflattering things about the moral content of Star Trek fandom and the whole media structure--editors, writers, publishers--that supports the fandom. How can people who say that Before Dishonor was essentially a work of snuff bear to associate with such a morally bankrupt and vicious community?

 

[Octavia]

Bad enough that she died but seriously - who thought that death was a good idea?

A woman. Named Margaret Clark. Who leads a team of editors at Pocket Books.

In a manuscript approved by a woman. Paula Block. Who leads a team of licensing people at CBS Consumer Products.

Who are both members of Star Trek "first fandom", and grew up among in the ranks of those early fanfic writers and conventioneers of the late 60s/early 70s. And have been involved professionally with Star Trek since the 80s.

If you're implying that women can't be sexist, I give you a counter-example to squish that particular argument: Ann Coulter. There are many more.

This is not to say, please note, that I think Clark or Block were motivated by sexism. That is not what I am arguing. It is to say that having an XX chromosome doesn't automatically make you free from sexism. Hell, look at those mothers who connive in the 'honour killings' of their daughters (but not their sons!) and feel justified in doing so. Or the many women (even in developed countries) who believe that a woman's place is in the home, raising babies, and nowhere else.

Your argument is based on a false premise, is what I'm saying:

a) X is a woman
b) Women cannot be sexist
c) X is not sexist

Logically, as (b) is a false premise, then (a) /-> (c).

 

[Octavia]

Saying that Before Dishonor might have been written unintentionally as a snuff scenario, or that the scenario might not have been created as with malign intent, says a lot of very unflattering things about the moral content of Star Trek fandom and the whole media structure--editors, writers, publishers--that supports the fandom. How can people who say that Before Dishonor was essentially a work of snuff bear to associate with such a morally bankrupt and vicious community?

You're conflating lack of intention with evil intent. It's a strawman, as it pushes out other options.

Gross naivete, for example, doesn't indicate moral bankruptcy and viciousness.