Poll: Janeway & Gender

[Nerys Ghemor]

Proportionately only one out of three males do not like Janeway compared to one out of every four women. I think when this thread was started it was expected that most men would not like Janeway as a captain and so thus that theory was laid to rest. I also think that it was expected that women would overwhelmingly support Janeway as a captain and that is simply not true either, but percentage wise more women are pro-Janeway than men are for what it's worth.

Kevin

I'm glad to see a few other women stick out and admit they don't like Janeway--but personally, I'm disappointed that so few did speak up. After all, just because Janeway is a woman should not make her immune to having her command style and character judged to the same level as a man. To me, to hold her to any less of a standard is repellent.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I think when this thread was started it was expected that most men would not like Janeway as a captain and so thus that theory was laid to rest.

Additionally, many men who like Janeway as a character weren't necessarily angered by her "death". It's not part of the poll, but it seemed to be an assumption by many that she was hated by most males and we were glad she was gone.

 

[neogothboy74]

I voted yes I like her and I'm a man. It's a bit more complicated than that though. My favorite Janeway is Season 1 Janeway. I just think she was far more interesting as a character in that season, and that her character was written very consistantly. I very nearly hated her in the series finale and feel she should have been demoted as a result. I also loved her in the "String Theory" books (which helped explain why the character became so strange in later seasons). I don't remember disliking her in the first 2 relaunch books, but I couldn't make it through the 3rd one. I was moved by her death in "Before Dishonor", but didn't feel cheated by it; I hope she stays dead. Though if the character did return, I wouldn't be overly upset - I just wish more Trek characters stayed dead; it's that simple. I think Kate Mulgrew did a wonderful job with what she was given, and that when the character was written as a well rounded sane woman (see Season 1) she pulled it off, and that when the character was written otherwise, Kate still made the character hard to dislike. Janeway is a mixed bag, but overall I'd have to say I liked her. However, I much preferred the strong, well written characters of Kira & Dax on DS9.

Oh. And if it matters, I'm gay.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I also loved her in the "String Theory" books (which helped explain why the character became so strange in later seasons) .

"The Captain's Table: Fire Ship" is also a good character growth book, with Janeway separated from her crew for several months.

 

[Kirk1980]

I have no problem with the fairer sex being in command.

But come on, give us a compelling character to root for. If we could get an interesting female character like Kira in command....then hey, I'm all for it.

 

[Brit]

But come on, give us a compelling character to root for. If we could get an interesting female character like Kira in command....then hey, I'm all for it.

And there are those that do think that Janeway was a very compelling character to root for, and frankly I think the brain damage stuff in "String Theory" is rather insulting. And we would even be fine if Janeway was judged by the "same" standards that the other captains, but very often she isn't. Like so many of us face in real life, she has to be "better" to even be thought of as being as good as the others.

Kirk, I think Kira would have been and actually is a wonderful captain, but I can tell you that if she was the lead of a Trek Series there would be people that would be picking her apart too. Some of my favorite scenes in all of Trek were Kria and Jadiza together, ready to take on anything.

But I also want you all to think of one other thing. The producers of Deep Space Nine knew how to produce stories for strong female characters. Some of the major problems with Voyager date to when Berman and company took over production. They didn't know how to produce those stories, and they thought that all that had to do is put a blond in a cat suit. What should have happened is that when DS9 was over, the DS9 producers should have been switched to Voyager and let Berman and company concentrate on "Enterprise" which was what they were doing anyway.

I love Voyager, I love the characters on Voyager from Captain Janeway right down to Neelix (well maybe not so much), but the absolutly best series was "Deep Space Nine". I just don't feel the need to fix it like I do Voyager. From my point of view there are so many possibilities, but I need Kathryn Janeway to be a part of it.

One of the sticking points for me and most of my friends is the interaction of the Voyager characters with each other. It's not about exploration, or any great adventure, it's about people separated from home, building new relationships of friendship and family. We know Ayala has a first name (it's Mike by the way). We know that Tal Celes is shy and quiet and has a huge crush on Harry, and we also know what happened to the Borg Baby. What if Seven had to work with Mort Harren on a project, what kind of explosion would that cause?

When you take any of these characters away either by death or transfer to other ships or other lives, big holes are left and it isn't complete and it's frankly not Voyager in a lot of eyes.

We have never demanded that any of you like Kathryn Janeway, just respect the fact that there are people that do, and that they have definite reasons for doing so, whether you understand the reason or not.

Brit

 

[ZMistress]

Kirk, I think Kira would have been and actually is a wonderful captain, but I can tell you that if she was the lead of a Trek Series there would be people that would be picking her apart too.

There are enough people who pick her apart no matter whether she was the lead character or not. Tastes differ.

We have never demanded that any of you like Kathryn Janeway, just respect the fact that there are people that do, and that they have definite reasons for doing so, whether you understand the reason or not.

Of course. I respect that. That I didn't like her much doesn't mean everyone else has to dislike her, too.

 

[BillJ]

Some of the major problems with Voyager date to when Berman and company took over production. They didn't know how to produce those stories, and they thought that all that had to do is put a blond in a cat suit.

Brit

That statement made absolutely no sense. I would have to imagine Rick Berman had a hand in production since day one since he is a co-creator and executive producer.

 

[captcalhoun]

We have never demanded that any of you like Kathryn Janeway, just respect the fact that there are people that do, and that they have definite reasons for doing so, whether you understand the reason or not.

we never said we didn't. we just want you to quit harping on about her being dead in the books and get over it.

 

[Brit]

We have never demanded that any of you like Kathryn Janeway, just respect the fact that there are people that do, and that they have definite reasons for doing so, whether you understand the reason or not.

we never said we didn't. we just want you to quit harping on about her being dead in the books and get over it.

And I just explained why we cannot get over it, we can never get over it. Just the fact that you say we should shows disrespect.

Brit

 

[BillJ]

We have never demanded that any of you like Kathryn Janeway, just respect the fact that there are people that do, and that they have definite reasons for doing so, whether you understand the reason or not.

we never said we didn't. we just want you to quit harping on about her being dead in the books and get over it.

And I just explained why we cannot get over it, we can never get over it. Just the fact that you say we should shows disrespect.

Brit

It also shows disrespect when you continue to try and ram your views down everyone's throats. In the current book continuity Janeway is dead. But that doesn't preclude you from going back and watching your Voyager DVD's or reading the pre-Before Dishonor novels. There is even a 15 issue comic book run from the late 90's. If you like Janeway there is more than enough material out there to get you through the night.

There's even a ton of fan fiction out there. Why be soooo bothered by what Pocket is doing?

 

[kimc]

Proportionately only one out of three males do not like Janeway compared to one out of every four women. I think when this thread was started it was expected that most men would not like Janeway as a captain and so thus that theory was laid to rest. I also think that it was expected that women would overwhelmingly support Janeway as a captain and that is simply not true either, but percentage wise more women are pro-Janeway than men are for what it's worth.

Kevin

Believe it or not I'm not all that surprised by the results. Personally I've always believed there were more Janeway fans among both men and women than both the Trek fanbase and Pocket Books realized. This is why I was shocked that they killed her off. To me it seems like the equivalent of setting fire to a pile of money - a risky move in these economic times.

 

[Therin of Andor]

But I also want you all to think of one other thing. The producers of Deep Space Nine knew how to produce stories for strong female characters. Some of the major problems with Voyager date to when Berman and company took over production. They didn't know how to produce those stories, and they thought that all that had to do is put a blond in a cat suit. What should have happened is that when DS9 was over, the DS9 producers should have been switched to Voyager and let Berman and company concentrate on "Enterprise" which was what they were doing anyway.

Why are you not saying that the significant change in Janeway's character continuity corresponded with the departure of Jeri Taylor? Seems to me that many fans agree that she had the keys to what made Janeway tick. Hence the novel, "Mosaic", written while she was still with the series.

As a strong female herself, and had Taylor still been with the show to the end, "Berman and company" may have had to work harder to get certain later Janeway actions and dialogue through the script breakdown process.

Berman was with VOY from the start anyway.

 

[BillJ]

Berman was the top dog on VOY from the start anyway.

Fixed it for ya.

 

[Therin of Andor]

And I just explained why we cannot get over it, we can never get over it. Just the fact that you say we should shows disrespect.

Were fans also being disrespectful to the "Spock Must Not Die!" campaigners, who took out newspaper ads to make dire predictions of losses to Paramount, when they were told to stop worrying and to trust Bennett and Meyer to tell a compelling, successful ST story? Spock's death contributed to making ST II a success. And the actor was adamant that the character was staying dead.

Why do you continue to assume that Janeway is never ever ever coming back? This is science fiction!

Pocket said that the B-4 android was never going to amount to anything, and now IDW Comics and ST Online have taken up the challenge to oppose Pocket's ideas, and provide an alternate story arc. Data was my favourite Star Trek character. He died in "Nemesis". I was angry that I felt little emotion the way he was killed off. I missed him. People told me I'd get over it. I probably did get over it, but I also never felt my wishes were deliberately being disrepected when Data stayed dead, when novelists told be that B-4 was beyond help, when people said that Data was staying dead.

But I also knew that any great character in science fiction doesn't stay dead. Batman, Superman, Jean Grey, the Flash, the Joker, Robin, Jericho, Captain America, Spock, Kirk, T'Pau, Sisko, Tucker... They just rest in limbo until that compelling new storyline comes along.

Mind you, I'm not speaking for other Data fans. And yet, you continue to use "we" when presenting your case for Janeway.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Berman was the top dog on VOY from the start anyway.

Fixed it for ya.

Well, I never said that. So, although you're winking, please don't rewrite my stuff.

 

[BillJ]

Berman was the top dog on VOY from the start anyway.

Fixed it for ya.

Well, I never said that. So, although you're winking, please don't rewrite my stuff.

My bad. It was a joke in what has become a humorless thread.

 

[Therin of Andor]

My bad. It was a joke in what has become a humorless thread.

Hey, no need for "rolls eyes".

I'm all for humour in long, testy threads, but changing people's posts is really bad netiquette.

 

[Leaf]

But I also knew that any great character in science fiction doesn't stay dead. Batman, Superman, Jean Grey, the Flash, the Joker, Robin, Jericho, Captain America, Spock, Kirk, T'Pau, Sisko, Tucker... They just rest in limbo until that compelling new storyline comes along.

Mind you, I'm not speaking for other Data fans. And yet, you continue to use "we" when presenting your case for Janeway.

T'pau came back from the dead? What on Earth for? She was like, a million years old.

 

[Brit]

Were fans also being disrespectful to the "Spock Must Not Die!" campaigners, who took out newspaper ads to make dire predictions of losses to Paramount, when they were told to stop worrying and to trust Bennett and Meyer to tell a compelling, successful ST story? Spock's death contributed to making ST II a success. And the actor was adamant that the character was staying dead.

No they were not and in any case Spock didn't stay dead either.

And I am speaking for other fans, a number of fans that don't come here because they would be treated with the same disrespect you are treating me. But you all just go right ahead. You are proving that point over and over again.

Brit