You're talking about overcoming societal prejudices, right? Why would it bother you that Trek didn't have an instance of this if it weren't a societal prejudice you were annoyed about?
That's all I meant.
Poll: Janeway & Gender
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You're talking about overcoming societal prejudices, right? Why would it bother you that Trek didn't have an instance of this if it weren't a societal prejudice you were annoyed about?
That's all I meant.
This is a really good point, and a perspective I hadn't thought of.
I don't know, though. Isn't the goal of all of this to have gender, race, etc just not matter at all? It always bugs me to have conversations like this, because I imagine as a writer thinking "seriously? I want to tell this story, I think it'll be incredible, but I can't kill this character off because she's a woman and it might LOOK BAD? Fuck THAT!" You know?
I'm sorry, I'm still not understanding.
You're saying I'm frustrated that Trek refuses to show a black/Asian relationship, but they will not show it because it is a 'societal prejudice'?
And keep in mind you just previously mentioned that sci-fi, being overwhelmingly written by white Americans will be based on what they--whites--know, so I'm assuming this refusal (obviously in Trek) is based on their--i.e. 'white societal prejudices'...stuff they don't care to see.
Dude. I often walk home late from the library at night, through dark deserted streets. I know that it's possible that sooner or later I might have cause to regret this, but I continue to do it.
If that results in my rape and murder, did I deserve it?
Heh, sorry; tangled syntax gets the best of me.
You had complained in the past that Trek didn't show an example of this kind of relationship, correct?
Your argument then seemed to be "Trek is not doing properly in its mission statement of multicultural diversity, because here's an example of multicultural diversity that it has ignored," correct?
I find that argument silly; I don't understand why Trek isn't doing its job just because it fails to show a particular combination. Like, is Trek 'behind the times' because it doesn't have a relationship between an Inuit and a Persian?
Did I misinterpret your argument?
Sorry for any misunderstandings here; I tried to clarify in my edit about Kirk.
I realize "deserve" is an emotionally laden word in arguments about Feminism, and it comes from this exact argument. I'm not saying anyone deserves to be raped, killed, or whatever. I'm saying, you do risky shit often, you have a greater risk of consequences - simple, factual statement, nothing more. Janeway did a lot of risky shit for little reward; I think that's practically inarguable. It's not surprising that eventually one of those risks didn't pay off. Much as it did with Kirk.
No one deserves to die in a moral sense, and I'd never have thought otherwise.
I do know!
But the thing is, all Trek writers chose to be Trek writers. They could have contented themselves with original works in which they could twist the story in whichever way they pleased. Instead they chose to write for Trek - and as I don't believe any of them are thick, they knew full well in advance the restrictions they were getting into.
Trek is marketed as a hopeful, socially aware franchise. If you sign up to write hopeful, socially aware stories then I don't really think you have any grounds to complain at not being able to write hopeful, socially unaware stories, hopeless, socially aware stories, or hopeless and socially unaware stories.
I do know!
But the thing is, all Trek writers chose to be Trek writers. They could have contented themselves with original works in which they could twist the story in whichever way they pleased. Instead they chose to write for Trek - and as I don't believe any of them are thick, they knew full well in advance the restrictions they were getting into.
Trek is marketed as a hopeful, socially aware franchise. If you sign up to write hopeful, socially aware stories then I don't really think you have any grounds to complain at not being able to write hopeful, socially unaware stories, hopeless, socially aware stories, or hopeless and socially unaware stories.
Another valid and interesting point; I'm seriously enjoying this argument, you're really making me think here!
But while Trek is a hopeful, socially aware franchise, it is not true that every story within it must be both hopeful and socially aware. David Mack, who wrote the Destiny trilogy, also wrote was is probably the single most depressing, lacking-in-hope Trek story in my recent memory (A Time To Kill / A Time To Heal), another story that I loved. I think Trek has grown far beyond the one-morality-play-after-another style of TOS, and it's a much more complicated place that can be used to make much more varied points.
I mean, sometimes stuff just doesn't work out right, some situations have no solution. Recognizing that and still having hope that overall things will improve is valid too.
No, Janeway dying was not a hopeful moment; that whole book is rather short on hope and merriment, really. But I think that kind of story has a place in the Trek universe; it still reflects reality, it still asks complicated moral questions, and it's still fundamentally optimistic in the long view.
Okay, I get you now. Sorry for misunderstanding you!
I agree that increased risk leads to increased chance of death. (Although I would be amused to see Harry Kim die after tripping on a staircase - in his case, multiple returns to life imply acceptance of a personally risk-high environment, hee!)
And although Janeway's death from stupid risk wouldn't thrill me (from a visible role model point of view, among others), I could accept it better had it not happened in quite the way that it did. Shoot her in the head, infect her with an incurable disease after being told "don't do that!"... I wouldn't like it, but I'd be better able to accept it than the somewhat mean-spirited end she got - symbolically raped to death while power mocks her suffering.
The former would annoy me, but I find the latter pretty sickening. And not in a good way!
So, you basically find it 'silly' that I, and possibly others, want to see a black/Asian relationship onscreen; aside from that strong characters who are of color. Moreover, you claim that Trek refuses to show such because of societal prejudices.
Before there were homosexual characters in the novels, where you saying it was 'silly' to believe that would happen? That there were overwhelmingly heterosexual writers in sci-fi (who write what they know), so to believe there would be homosexual characters in Trek is 'silly' because of 'societal prejudices'?
Moreover, I haven't seen any characters on Trek that were Persian and Inuit on Trek...but hey....why not? (I'm obviously not Inuit or Persian, but according to you...if there are 'societal prejudices' and since sci-fi is overwhelmingly 'white' we may not see such...unless a Persian or Inuit writer steps up).
Am I understanding your reply?
Whoa, whoa, let's back up. I didn't say Trek refused to show such a thing because of societal prejudices. That's a misunderstanding of a part of a post that was awkwardly written; my fault for not being clearer. But I never meant to imply that at ALL.
I'm saying that, in fiction written by white Americans, there are going to be a disproportionate number of white people. Which means that the odds of there being a black person and an asian person that would fall in love are just, relatively speaking, low.
What I mean is, I don't think they're "refusing" to write such a relationship. I just don't think one has happened yet. Lack of presence does not mean intentional absence.
Hoshi, I'm loath to suggest it - as it seems a bit like letting Trek off the hook - but demographically Thrawn has a point. Like me, lot of women are reading women SF writers these days because they seem to be more focused on rounded female protagonists. I know I haven't read a lot of SF by Asian (apart from the odd piece by Kobo Abe, whose Inter Ice Age was cool as) or black writers, reflecting their particular demographics... but I'd be interested in it! Perhaps anyone with suggestions of authors writing those kinds of SF stories could post 'em somewhere...
Of course, then we get into vicious cycle territory; the lack of visibility by certain groups in any given profession or media which has a chilling effect on members of that group who might otherwise be interested, thus perpetuating the absence, etc. It's a two-way street, to be sure, but if one side always waits for the other to make the proper inclusionary/participatory gestures, we'll never get anywhere. There is an argument to be made for diversity for its own sake. EDIT: Not that I'm suggesting anybody in this conversation has acted otherwise.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Wouldn't it be easier to be inclusive in Trek? I mean, I'm a Caucasian woman, so realistically I probably couldn't write about the experience of being ___(fill in the blank with your minority of choice)___ in the present or the recent past with any degree of authenticity. But in Trek, all those differences among humans, at least, have disappeared. So you can just introduce a person of any race or either gender without having to create a different life experience based only on that person's race or gender. In other words, I wouldn't have to understand what it's like to grow up in an urban jungle or a sharecropper's cabin or migrant farmworker's camp since there would be no more urban jungles or sharecroppers or migrant farmworkers.
Maybe it just feels awkward (or "forced," perhaps?) because it takes at least a bit of effort to remember all that? I don't know - I've never tried to write a Trek novel.
Maybe it just feels awkward (or "forced," perhaps?) because it takes at least a bit of effort to remember all that? I don't know - I've never tried to write a Trek novel.
Diversity is different from homogenization, though; part of Sulu's character was his Asian ancestry, and the same is true of many other characters (Uhura, etc). The idea, I would expect, is to respect those cultures, not just skin colors. So no, that wouldn't really work.
Sorry to double-post, but I'm afraid if I edit my previous one, this will get lost. What I'm trying to say is that most of what we now consider essential to understanding this race or that one would be as distant and...foreign to Sulu or Uhura as it is to me. I might actually know more about relocation camps than Sulu - you never know. I at least have met people who were in one.
Another thing to consider though is the difference between diversity as a concept and respect for specific Earth cultures; Titan is a huge statement for diversity being an advantage, but the diversity comes from completely fictional cultures. Promoting the ideal of IDIC is different from trying to represent every possible human respectfully.
It's not a very close comparison at all.
Janeway's death had little to do with her being female and everything to do with her being a Starfleet officer who actively sought out every chance she could to deal and/or undermine the Borg, taking exorbitant and even arrogant risks with the Borg, eventually one too many.
Elsewhere on this forum, there has been some discussion about how Avery Brooks insisted that the producers write his departure at the end of Season 7 to be with the Prophet as temporary, because he didn't want to reinforce the stereotype of the African-American father as one who abandoned his children at a whim. That, I can see. Janeway's fate is too intensely embedded in her relationship with the Borg, independent of her gender, for me to see a similarly close relationship.
Speaking as a gay man, I hear that, but I don't see as necessary a relationship as you between Janeway's fate in Before Dishonor and her gender identity.
From my perspective, it's not so much "it wasn't meant that way" as "it could be meant that way." Misogynists could, if they wanted, use Janeway's fate and its consequences as another example of why women shouldn't be captains. That's far from being an inevitable conclusion. I took from Before Dishonor an appreciation of Janeway's strength, misguided thought it might have been at times.
As for strong female characters, Seven of Nine has to be given plaudits: she escapes from Earth, manages to get to the Enterprise, leads the planetkiller in mortal battle against the Borg supercube, and delivers Endgame directly into the Borg consciousness, with Janeway's help. That is strength.
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