JemHadar were supposed to be Klingons! Tell me I'm wrong?

[TheMasterOfOrion]

I suppose there must be many here who watch it all on its first run and are more aware of the behind-the-scenes in DeepSpace-9. For me the JemHadar have to be one of the more pointless species in Star Trek. They have a big entry all fire and hype and then they burn out to become one of the most uneventful personalities in Trek. There's too much of the JemHadar which says to me these guys were supposed to be Klingons, from the tone of their voice, their big physical look to the copycat klingon swords they carry. IMO they would have been much better as Klingons.

Looking back I get the feeling it was the intro of Michael Dorn Worf character in 1995 which caused the Klingon name to flip to JemHadar. Perhaps it was to gain ratings that DS9 adopted the phenomenon of stunt casting of actors who played O'Brien and Worf from TNG. I'm not saying they are bad actors, I think these guys are some of the best in the movie business but I am saying looking back at the dvds recently I feel DS9 never had the full courage to stand on its own feet. The DS9 writers probably felt having Worf allied with the Federation while the humans were fighting a Dominon backed by Klingon foot soldiers would have been just too complicated to deal with.

 

[JustKate]

I thought the Jem Hadar were a very interesting species - a species entirely dedicated to the service of another species is kind of a new thing in Trekdom. That they even existed told us a lot about the Dominion, too.

Sure, there are similarities with the Klingons, but then again, there are similarities between the Klingons and the Romulans.

Who they remind me of - a lot - are the Urukai, the hybrid orcs from Lord of the Rings. Not too surprising since both are species created for a specific purpose, and that is unquestioning service to a great power.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

I'm a little confused.

The Jem'Hadar were short-lived clones genetically engineered by an evil empire to be used as shock troopers. They were bred to be addicted to a chemical substance to ensure their loyalty. They didn't eat, they didn't sleep, they didn't breed. All of them were males. They looked like rhinos.

The Klingons were a race of long-lived and exceptionally proud and principled warriors. Most of them had an over-developped sense of honor, but were blind to the rampant corruption that was slowly destroying their empire. They loved to eat, mate, laugh, party. There were males and females. They looked like feudal Japanese warriors with turtle shells on their heads.

I'm telling you: you are wrong.

 

[jgdst]

I'd agree with JustKate's post. The Jem'Hadar easily identified themselves as a whole new race to me. They even had subcultures of sorts, all being genetically engineered, and the rift that grew whether they were grown in the Alpha or Gamma Quadrant.

As for the writers worrying DS9 couldn't stand on its own... I've always understood it the showrunners wanted to press on with the Dominion story that kicks off in earnest in The Adversary, but the suits wanted things to be shaken up. A ratings puller was introduced in the form of Worf - TNG still being very popular at the time, and so the writers got sidetracked trying to weave the Klingons into the DS9 story.

If anything, I think the introduction of the Klingons showed us how different they are from the Jem'Hadar. The Klingons crave battle for honour for themselves and their family/house/empire. The Jem'Hadar do it because they were programmed to serve the Founders. There is no honour, no real pride in what they do, they just do it. If I'm not mistaken, a couple of episodes dealt with this difference between the two.

That's just my two pennies though

EDIT - The Mirrorball Man managed to fire off a post before I could, so sorry for the repetition

 

[JustKate]

I wouldn't say there's no honor in the Jem Hadar - unless the definition of "honor" includes the stipulation that honor is a choice, which it very well might. But they aren't machines. They genuinely seem feel that they are serving...well, their deities, really. There is honor in fighting for what you think is right, and the Jem Hadar really seem to feel as though the Dominion ought to rule whatever it wants to.

 

[JoeZhang]

They genuinely seem feel that they are serving...well, their deities, really.

They were genetically engineered to serve the founders (yes I know it wouldn't work like that - tell the writers) and born addicted to a substance provided by those founders. In addition, since they were born and combat ready in less than a week, their training program would surely include liberal doses of brainwashing to reinforce their programming.

I don't think it's directly comparable to someone deciding to serve in Starfleet.

 

[JustKate]

^ No, no - I didn't mean that. But I do think they recognized the idea of honor. Certainly that's implied in the episode in which we first meet them. I wish I could remember the name of the episode, but at the end of the fighting, doesn't the Jem'Hadar leader say complimentary things to the Starfleet personnel? I'm pretty sure.

Besides, you can behave with honor even if you're in a situation not of your own choosing. Prisoners, slaves...they can behave honorably.

 

[TheMasterOfOrion]

PS When I speak of Klingons I'm talking about MODERN DAY Klingons, not the guys from the old show who are more like Mongols/Russians

If the Jem Hadar were honorless like the Borg or Romulans or whoever else wouldn't they have shot Worf in the back and killed him instead of allowing Worf to fight his way out of their camp in a Rocky Balboa style tournament. Clearly the JemHadar had equal if not more "honor" than Klingons despite the DS9 team efforts to rewrite history of their own show with Klingon propaganda. IMO JemHadar's are just Klingon's sexed up to look badder but I will never expect DS9 wirters to admit as much since there are dozens of other obvious things they refuse to admit to.

If we look at the Earth-ethnicity theory of DS9

There might be some connection between Romulans and Klingons but
I see way more in common between the JemHadar and Klingons
The Romulans are a mix between old logical/marxist thinking and a mix of passion/culture/poetry. The Romulan civilization asks for passion and complete loyalty to their big red state, and they celebrate their passionate emotions. Although the Romulans and Federation (USA/NATO) have learned to understand each other, their are still many who are suspicious on both sides and many factions in the Rommie military still believe that the Federation cannot be trusted. I think its clear the Romulans still are based on Communist Chinese, the Romulans are still standoffish like China, very powerful and also very protective of their sphere of influence

There is little difference between Jem Hadar and today's Klingons
modern day Klingons. The modern day Klingon is very different to the Roddenbery traditional USSR style warrior, the new TNG/DS9 writers took the old Klingon model and took it in a direction obessed with dying for their Empire, rituals, blood letting etc The modern Klingons and Jem Hader show loyalty to their Empire until death. It has often been said Jem Hader and Klingons are based on Kamikaze Japanese or Extremist Muslims but with the physical bodies of Arnold Schwarzenegger.


Ferengi might be considered by some to be the stereotype of Jewish banking money grabbers

 

[JustKate]

I understood all that, Master. I'm afraid I just disagree. Your comparison of the Jem'Hadar with the kamikaze pilots is a really good one, but I just don't think it works that well for the Klingons. Any Klingons, be they TOS, TNG, DS9, whatever.

(I don't agree completely on the Ferengi, either, but that's a topic for another thread.)

 

[jgdst]

There is little difference between Jem Hadar and today's Klingons
modern day Klingons. The modern day Klingon is very different to the Roddenbery traditional USSR style warrior, the new TNG/DS9 writers took the old Klingon model and took it in a direction obessed with dying for their Empire, rituals, blood letting etc The modern Klingons and Jem Hader show loyalty to their Empire until death. It has often been said Jem Hader and Klingons are based on Kamikaze Japanese or Extremist Muslims but with the physical bodies of Arnold Schwarzenegger.

I'm not sure I've heard that comparison before, but it doesn't really seem to fit with the Klingons. The Jem'Hadar certainly behaved like Kamikaze pilots when they destroyed the Odyssey.

Ferengi might be considered by some to be the stereotype of Jewish banking money grabbers

Umm...

I can't say I've come across this either until a thread popped up about it a couple of weeks ago on here. I find it hard to believe anyone, least of all the writers, would go for such an obviously racist comparison...

 

[TheMasterOfOrion]

I'm not sure I've heard that comparison before, but it doesn't really seem to fit with the Klingons. The Jem'Hadar certainly behaved like Kamikaze pilots when they destroyed the Odyssey.

Wasn't it the episode 'Reunion' when Ronald Moore and Brannon Braga made the Klingons part of suicide bomber plots. When I looked at modern Klingons it says to me kamikaze, honur, samurai culture etc as opposed to Roddenberry's original Klingon vision which was more Mongolian/Russian versus a USA/NATO style Federation

 

[jgdst]

^ Ahh, I'll have to concede that one to you I've got a patchy memory of post BOBW TNG and that's one episode slipped my mind.

 

[Marie1]

I'm throwing my thoughts into the Jem'hadar are not Klingons group. Though the Jem'hadar were pretty pleased there would be a few species that could hold their own in hand to hand combat with them.

Some Jem'hadar had "honour" but they're slave soldiers, they do what they're told. Klingons kindof do, but they can challenge bad rulers in fights to the death. Jem'hadar- obedience is life, even if the Vorta is a moron. (On that note, thanks Ometi'klan! )

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I'm not sure I've heard that comparison before, but it doesn't really seem to fit with the Klingons. The Jem'Hadar certainly behaved like Kamikaze pilots when they destroyed the Odyssey.

Wasn't it the episode 'Reunion' when Ronald Moore and Brannon Braga made the Klingons part of suicide bomber plots. When I looked at modern Klingons it says to me kamikaze, honur, samurai culture etc as opposed to Roddenberry's original Klingon vision which was more Mongolian/Russian versus a USA/NATO style Federation

Oh...I got more of a Viking/Norse read on the modern Klingons than a Japanese feel from them.

 

[AdmiralGarak]

Ferengi might be considered by some to be the stereotype of Jewish banking money grabbers

The last time someone argued that garbage, he got warned for it. Steer clear.


As for Jem'Hadar equalling Klingons-- I don't agree at all. In fact, I would say that Jem'hadar are almost anti-Klingons.


Klingon culture revolves around honor, individual glory, and heroic warriors fighting against colossal odds. They're fortune seeking (though not in a monetary sense), passionate, and (try to) follow a code of ethics.

Jem'Hadar have no culture, no women, no art, no vices, and no ethics. They're cannon fodder soldiers, not warriors. They have no concept of individual glory, and do not care a fig about honor or heroism. It's nearly impossible to reason with a Jem'Hadar because he is programmed to obey the Founders unquestioningly.

They have literally one thing in common. They're big dudes who fight. Beyond that, I would say they are more different from one another than Klingons and Ferengi.

 

[JustKate]

I don't agree 100 percent with the "no ethics" part, but I think your summing up of the "literally one thing in common" is downright masterly:

They're big dudes who fight. Beyond that, I would say they are more different from one another than Klingons and Ferengi.

That's it in a nutshell, I'd say.

 

[TedShatner10]

Ferengi might be considered by some to be the stereotype of Jewish banking money grabbers

The last time someone argued that garbage, he got warned for it. Steer clear.

Yeah, what the fuck was I thinking?!

Sticking my head out of backside, thinking properly about the Ferengi Allience they're much more like banking nations such as Switzerland or Singapore without going into crass, damaging stereotyping.

The Cardassians are perhaps comparable the Dutch and Belgiums in Imperial times in that they can be grounded between the gears militarily by the French, Spanish, British, Japanese, and Germans, but they can easily conquer and viciously bully many pre-industrial civilizations.

 

[TheMasterOfOrion]

The last time someone argued that garbage, he got warned for it. Steer clear.

One absolute crap! Now its forbidden to talk about the elephant in the room!? thing I don't agree with is the PC code of social conformity where you can't even mention the word black or Jew without getting flamed by hyper sensitive folks like Spike or WJC. Stereotypes Do Exist!! They are used today whether they be consciously used or sub consciously or perhaps by total accident.
Sometimes Trek writers run off these sterotypes, not to make some racist recruitment message but sometimes just to kind of ironically joke these one-dimensional narrow views of people might still exist in the future. For example I remember Frank Gorshin doing an episode where mixed color started this huge race war and Federation people openly displaying contempt for Spocks people in TOS. I remember in TNG Picard goes to one planet where everyone is named O'Moira, or O'Dilley or some ridiculous name and they beam those people up on the ship and they are all riverdance and drink and stories about leprechuans and sheep. Then an episode or two later Data in some history lesson is going on about the Irish kicking out the English war of unification. It's not about some prejudiced message in all these episodes, its just some kind of ironic commentary

That's it in a nutshell, I'd say.

I don't agree with this at all since Jem Hadar and Klingons share maybe a hundred or so common traits, in fact I firmly believe the Jem Hadar were supposed to be Klingons but I know DS9 writers won't admit as mcuh. I don't really like the modernized Klingon which is more based on samurai or islamic culture I prefered when they weren't so obsessed with rituals and were more like commanders of the Mongols or USSR. Klingons worked better as bad guys, the worst thing TNG and DS9 did was they tried to tame the Klingons while giving them all these medieval culture. That's when Klingons started to jump the shark, I think DS9 was afraid to make Worf's people bad because the character had such a huge fanbase and Paramount was worried about their upcoming movies.

 

[JustKate]

^ Sorry, Orion, I admire your reasoning but I simply don't agree with it. Even if your theory/information that the DS9 writers had considered introducing "bad" Klingons as slaves for the Dominion is true, well, the end result is that they instead created a new species that I consider interesting, original, and a true addition to the Trek universe. So we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Marie1]

What are these 100 or so common traits?
1's a mammal, the other a lizard.
They're both ridiculously large, tough, and can fight... and thats pretty much it.

One is a lab-made super soldier, the other fights for honour. Tho both fight to protect.
To an extent, they may follow the orders of superiors vs. their better judgment.
One has sex, one does not- in fact, doesn't even have women.
One has a sense of humour, one does not.

I admit, I know Jem'Hadar better than Klingons, but I've never really found them the same or even all that much a like.