*~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*
- Thread starter Tachyon
- Start date
Tee hee. Yeah, I know.
But there are ones who say they see nothing going on between them, which I still find rather surprising sometimes.
Most definitely. That or unbelivable coincidences of going to the fridge to get some snack everytime a J/C scene is on.
I knew you were a J/C'er at heart - we can iron our the details later.
I think many recognize the issues you do, in fact most of us do, we just choose to ignore them at times to become mushy saps.
Not that I necessarily agree with you on everything you've said. I just don't think the navy or some special unit necessarily compares to the conditions on voyager or the 24th century. 
Let's first extend the group hug up here to Canadia....
...so the comparisons aren't invalid; maybe incomplete?
It's unsanitary to put words in other people's mouths, but are you saying that extra responsibility is the reason a ship's captain shouldn't be involved with a subordinate or have a family? I'm not totally convinced I wanted Janeway to have a family within the context of their seven-year voyage, but I'm also not convinced of that particular reasoning. If captains are held to a higher standard, why would that also not apply to serving with their loved one/family? In theory, they are merely other members of the crew...
Well feel free to put words in my mouth, because that's exactly what my point has been. I do see your point regarding that person's family also being held to a higher standard, but to me when it's the commanding, first or second officer, it's an irresponsible conflict of interest.
And his reasons are pretty much the same as mine to why I think having children aboard, unless completely necessary, is irresponsible.
Perfect, perfect example. While Worf's situation is probably worthy of its own thread, sending them on that kind of mission is exactly the thing that anyone involved with another officer could run into, Captain-trained or otherwise. Asking any Captain or officer to make that kind of sacrifice may be part of the job, but again, avoidable.
(And for the record, I would have preferred that Worf had abandoned his mission to save Dax, only to have her die anyway, rather than that dramatically-forced execution by Dukat. I view Worf's abandonment of his mission as just another sign of his Klingon-ness being compromised by being surrounded by non-Klingons, as well as adding a nice dimension to the character. Also, IIRC, Terry Farrell actually requested that they do the episode with Dax dying this way but they said no.)
Agreed.
I started quoting and got lost.. 
I'd have liked to have seen some more relationship squabbles, along with more crew conflict in general. Not necessarily under Janeways nose, but there was room for all kinds of behind-the-scenes issues, and so much went unexplored.
I think there might have been room on the show for more children, and the implications of having them there. IIRC, the epi with a stranded Samantha is the only VOY episode that specifically deals with the potential loss of that nature. Those would have been VOY-specific epis, and I think much could have been done with children/family issues. Beverly/Wesley and Worf/Alexander come to mind from TNG.
So, given all that, I think by the second or third season, there'd have been room for the reality of some domesticity included, meaning couples pairing off, breaking up, having babies, losing babies or spouses, and other conflicts as tertiary plot devices. Again, not necessarily sure I'd want it to be Janeway (and lizard babies do NOT count), but there could have been some great drama, including some deaths, which would have made my escapism a bit more plausible for me.
Since not, there's fanfic.
I'd have liked to have seen some more relationship squabbles, along with more crew conflict in general. Not necessarily under Janeways nose, but there was room for all kinds of behind-the-scenes issues, and so much went unexplored.
I think there might have been room on the show for more children, and the implications of having them there. IIRC, the epi with a stranded Samantha is the only VOY episode that specifically deals with the potential loss of that nature. Those would have been VOY-specific epis, and I think much could have been done with children/family issues. Beverly/Wesley and Worf/Alexander come to mind from TNG.
So, given all that, I think by the second or third season, there'd have been room for the reality of some domesticity included, meaning couples pairing off, breaking up, having babies, losing babies or spouses, and other conflicts as tertiary plot devices. Again, not necessarily sure I'd want it to be Janeway (and lizard babies do NOT count), but there could have been some great drama, including some deaths, which would have made my escapism a bit more plausible for me.
Since not, there's fanfic.
I can seen Janeway disposing of maternity leave if both father and mother of dozens of babies simultaneously expect to ignore their dutites for months or possibly years on end.
ENH. Emergency Nanny Hologram.
ENH. Emergency Nanny Hologram.
I didn’t bring it up to try to disperse the group hug or anything. I brought it up because: (1) While it has been mentioned, most notably by Praetor, nobody seems to have reacted to it, and I wanted to make sure it was noticed. (2) It's important, dang it. At least I think so. (3) Yes, I do think that it is yet another reason why a ship’s captain shouldn’t get involved with a subordinate – more on the family issue below. (4) And the other reason I brought it up is because it seemed to me that most of the people responding to the thread have little or no experience with the military – if they have, they haven’t mentioned it thus far. I don’t have much, but I really think that point of view adds something to the discussion, so I kind of elected myself spokeswoman. (I know Starfleet isn’t identical to the military – it’s part military, part diplomatic corps, and part science expedition – but I can’t think of a current closer parallel. At least it has a similar command structure, unlike a corporation.)
As for the issue of families, this is something I noticed even during TNG’s initial run, but it’s even more obvious now, and that is that although on some versions of Trek (notably TNG and DS9), there is theoretically no reason why a Starfleet officer shouldn’t have a family, the plain fact is that almost none of regulars do - and actually, we don't see many families on ship, period.
Why would this be? Is it because TPTB think there is or ought to be some generally accepted practice that high-ranking officers tend to devote themselves to career instead of family? Is it because TPTB honestly believe this is the most realistic scenario? Or is it simply because TPTB wanted to leave plenty of room for non-family-friendly plots (such as romances with passing aliens and such)? You got me. My guess would be the last one, but it is just a guess.
I would also have liked to have seen more family stuff on Voyager - just not involving Janeway, Chakotay or Tuvok. But...not too much, to be honest.
Praetor said:
This would not be allowed in the current military, I am pretty sure. You don’t command your spouse in a dangerous mission (and in the case of Voyager, that’s exactly what their initial pursuit of the Maquis was – let alone being stranded in the DQ). I know that if both are in the military and have children, there is a rule that only one can be deployed in a war zone at any one time. I’m not sure what happens if they’re childless, though.
The reasons are, it's too distracting and stressful for both parties, and besides, nobody wants to create a bunch of orphans.
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I must admit that was my original reaction when it appeared they were heading down that road. The idea obviously grew on me though.
I'm also amazed there are people who claim to have never seen it. If I wasn't looking for it and didn't like it when I first saw it then what the hell were they watching!?
I saw it early on. I didn't like it--just never liked those two together. I thought they brought out the worst in each other. But after YOH, really, it seemed to be cast aside.
Now, what that says about my maturity, social skills, ability to maintain an adult relationship, well, frankly, you're losing me there.
Teya - it was nothing to do with whether you like the J/C thing or dislike it. I was just making a little joke about those folks who claim to have watched Voyager and never noticed anything between J and C. It is their social skills I was making fun of, and it was really and truly just a little joke.
As you'll notice if you read some of the thread, I am not a fan of J/C either. Most definitely not. So if I had insulted the social skills of those who don't like the J/C romance, I would also have insulted my own social skills.
As you'll notice if you read some of the thread, I am not a fan of J/C either. Most definitely not. So if I had insulted the social skills of those who don't like the J/C romance, I would also have insulted my own social skills.
I've had my maturity and ability to handle a real adult relationship questioned because I never liked J/C.
Kinda funny, really. At least my late SO thought so. 
Frankly, though, J/C looked pretty one-sided to me. And since I could never figure out how a healthy human male was supposed to stay celibate for up to 75 years waiting for her, I counted it as dead post mid-season 4.
Now, I did see a lot of J/7 subtext post season 4, so whatever that says about me seeing that as opposed to J/C, who knows?
i think y'all know why i'm here.
I've had my maturity and ability to handle a real adult relationship questioned because I never liked J/C.
Frankly, though, J/C looked pretty one-sided to me. And since I could never figure out how a healthy human male was supposed to stay celibate for up to 75 years waiting for her, I counted it as dead post mid-season 4.
Now, I did see a lot of J/7 subtext post season 4, so whatever that says about me seeing that as opposed to J/C, who knows?
Eh, it just means you're a little twisted, but that's OK. IMO.
But anyway, I never liked J/C either - I've discussed why at some length on this thread, so I won't go into it yet again. (And the entire VOY group can be dimly heard in the distance cheering heartily.)
But I actually think that one's opinion on that has nothing to do with one's emotional maturity. But then again...I would, wouldn't I?
^ JustKate i read some of your whys and while they are interesting points, i have to disagree on the superior/subordinate dynamic not working. it worked quite well in DS9 with Odo and Kira.
and yes i'm aware that Kira was not the captain, BUT she was the highest-ranking Militia officer on board and therefore technically Odo's commanding officer. and they had a lot more conflict between them than just juggling a mixed crew (like the war run by Odo's own people).
just a thought you should consider.
and yes i'm aware that Kira was not the captain, BUT she was the highest-ranking Militia officer on board and therefore technically Odo's commanding officer. and they had a lot more conflict between them than just juggling a mixed crew (like the war run by Odo's own people).
just a thought you should consider.
