*~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Tachyon, Feb 12, 2009.

  1. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ I believe his exact words, on several occasions, were "Oh, no! They aren't going to try that, are they? That would be so wrong!"

    Leola, I had a reply to your post all written, and it was eaten. I'll try to get to it later today.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2009
  2. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Besides, Tachyon, it was obvious to pretty much everyone, I'd say. But some of us were hoping it would go no farther.
     
  3. Tachyon

    Tachyon Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Tee hee. Yeah, I know.

    But there are ones who say they see nothing going on between them, which I still find rather surprising sometimes.
     
  4. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ Apparently they were watching a different show?
     
  5. Tachyon

    Tachyon Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Maybe. :lol:

    Or their eyesights were seriously challenged alongside other useful senses.
     
  6. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ ::fingers in ears:: la la la la I'm not listening la la la la...

    It's gotta be something like that, don't you think?
     
  7. Tachyon

    Tachyon Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Most definitely. That or unbelivable coincidences of going to the fridge to get some snack everytime a J/C scene is on. :lol:
     
  8. Gorf

    Gorf Commander Red Shirt

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    I knew you were a J/C'er at heart - we can iron our the details later. ;)

    I think many recognize the issues you do, in fact most of us do, we just choose to ignore them at times to become mushy saps. :cool: Not that I necessarily agree with you on everything you've said. I just don't think the navy or some special unit necessarily compares to the conditions on voyager or the 24th century. :)
     
  9. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
    Well feel free to put words in my mouth, because that's exactly what my point has been. I do see your point regarding that person's family also being held to a higher standard, but to me when it's the commanding, first or second officer, it's an irresponsible conflict of interest.

    And his reasons are pretty much the same as mine to why I think having children aboard, unless completely necessary, is irresponsible.

    Perfect, perfect example. While Worf's situation is probably worthy of its own thread, sending them on that kind of mission is exactly the thing that anyone involved with another officer could run into, Captain-trained or otherwise. Asking any Captain or officer to make that kind of sacrifice may be part of the job, but again, avoidable.

    (And for the record, I would have preferred that Worf had abandoned his mission to save Dax, only to have her die anyway, rather than that dramatically-forced execution by Dukat. I view Worf's abandonment of his mission as just another sign of his Klingon-ness being compromised by being surrounded by non-Klingons, as well as adding a nice dimension to the character. Also, IIRC, Terry Farrell actually requested that they do the episode with Dax dying this way but they said no.)

    Agreed.
     
  10. leola

    leola Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I started quoting and got lost.. :rolleyes:

    I'd have liked to have seen some more relationship squabbles, along with more crew conflict in general. Not necessarily under Janeways nose, but there was room for all kinds of behind-the-scenes issues, and so much went unexplored.

    I think there might have been room on the show for more children, and the implications of having them there. IIRC, the epi with a stranded Samantha is the only VOY episode that specifically deals with the potential loss of that nature. Those would have been VOY-specific epis, and I think much could have been done with children/family issues. Beverly/Wesley and Worf/Alexander come to mind from TNG.

    So, given all that, I think by the second or third season, there'd have been room for the reality of some domesticity included, meaning couples pairing off, breaking up, having babies, losing babies or spouses, and other conflicts as tertiary plot devices. Again, not necessarily sure I'd want it to be Janeway (and lizard babies do NOT count), but there could have been some great drama, including some deaths, which would have made my escapism a bit more plausible for me.

    Since not, there's fanfic. :bolian:
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I can seen Janeway disposing of maternity leave if both father and mother of dozens of babies simultaneously expect to ignore their dutites for months or possibly years on end.

    ENH. Emergency Nanny Hologram.
     
  12. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I didn’t bring it up to try to disperse the group hug or anything. I brought it up because: (1) While it has been mentioned, most notably by Praetor, nobody seems to have reacted to it, and I wanted to make sure it was noticed. (2) It's important, dang it. At least I think so. (3) Yes, I do think that it is yet another reason why a ship’s captain shouldn’t get involved with a subordinate – more on the family issue below. (4) And the other reason I brought it up is because it seemed to me that most of the people responding to the thread have little or no experience with the military – if they have, they haven’t mentioned it thus far. I don’t have much, but I really think that point of view adds something to the discussion, so I kind of elected myself spokeswoman. (I know Starfleet isn’t identical to the military – it’s part military, part diplomatic corps, and part science expedition – but I can’t think of a current closer parallel. At least it has a similar command structure, unlike a corporation.)

    As for the issue of families, this is something I noticed even during TNG’s initial run, but it’s even more obvious now, and that is that although on some versions of Trek (notably TNG and DS9), there is theoretically no reason why a Starfleet officer shouldn’t have a family, the plain fact is that almost none of regulars do - and actually, we don't see many families on ship, period.

    Why would this be? Is it because TPTB think there is or ought to be some generally accepted practice that high-ranking officers tend to devote themselves to career instead of family? Is it because TPTB honestly believe this is the most realistic scenario? Or is it simply because TPTB wanted to leave plenty of room for non-family-friendly plots (such as romances with passing aliens and such)? You got me. My guess would be the last one, but it is just a guess.

    I would also have liked to have seen more family stuff on Voyager - just not involving Janeway, Chakotay or Tuvok. But...not too much, to be honest.

    This would not be allowed in the current military, I am pretty sure. You don’t command your spouse in a dangerous mission (and in the case of Voyager, that’s exactly what their initial pursuit of the Maquis was – let alone being stranded in the DQ). I know that if both are in the military and have children, there is a rule that only one can be deployed in a war zone at any one time. I’m not sure what happens if they’re childless, though.

    The reasons are, it's too distracting and stressful for both parties, and besides, nobody wants to create a bunch of orphans.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2009
  13. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

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    I must admit that was my original reaction when it appeared they were heading down that road. The idea obviously grew on me though.

    I'm also amazed there are people who claim to have never seen it. If I wasn't looking for it and didn't like it when I first saw it then what the hell were they watching!? ;)
     
  14. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ Oh, you're just an old softy, Kimc!

    But I must agree that I can't understand why anybody can say they didn't see it. Either they didn't want to see it, or they need to work just a BIT on their social skills.
     
  15. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I saw it early on. I didn't like it--just never liked those two together. I thought they brought out the worst in each other. But after YOH, really, it seemed to be cast aside.

    Now, what that says about my maturity, social skills, ability to maintain an adult relationship, well, frankly, you're losing me there.
     
  16. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Teya - it was nothing to do with whether you like the J/C thing or dislike it. I was just making a little joke about those folks who claim to have watched Voyager and never noticed anything between J and C. It is their social skills I was making fun of, and it was really and truly just a little joke.

    As you'll notice if you read some of the thread, I am not a fan of J/C either. Most definitely not. So if I had insulted the social skills of those who don't like the J/C romance, I would also have insulted my own social skills.
     
  17. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I've had my maturity and ability to handle a real adult relationship questioned because I never liked J/C. :lol: Kinda funny, really. At least my late SO thought so. :p

    Frankly, though, J/C looked pretty one-sided to me. And since I could never figure out how a healthy human male was supposed to stay celibate for up to 75 years waiting for her, I counted it as dead post mid-season 4.

    Now, I did see a lot of J/7 subtext post season 4, so whatever that says about me seeing that as opposed to J/C, who knows? :lol:
     
  18. Cheile

    Cheile Ensign Red Shirt

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    :sticks head in: hi Tach and everyone :D i think y'all know why i'm here. ;)
     
  19. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Eh, it just means you're a little twisted, but that's OK. IMO.

    But anyway, I never liked J/C either - I've discussed why at some length on this thread, so I won't go into it yet again. (And the entire VOY group can be dimly heard in the distance cheering heartily.)

    But I actually think that one's opinion on that has nothing to do with one's emotional maturity. But then again...I would, wouldn't I? :shifty:
     
  20. Cheile

    Cheile Ensign Red Shirt

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    ^ JustKate i read some of your whys and while they are interesting points, i have to disagree on the superior/subordinate dynamic not working. it worked quite well in DS9 with Odo and Kira.

    and yes i'm aware that Kira was not the captain, BUT she was the highest-ranking Militia officer on board and therefore technically Odo's commanding officer. and they had a lot more conflict between them than just juggling a mixed crew (like the war run by Odo's own people).

    just a thought you should consider. :)