Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[Therin of Andor]

When I first started visiting here and on Psi Phi boards I used to think that Ian (Therin) was an obnoxious know-it-all. Once I got to know Ian and his posting style I came to quite another opinion about him and now I see him as an enthusiastic fan who has a lot of knowledge he is willing to share without prejudice or respect of persons.

Hehehe. Thanks. After being challenged on several occasions, each time taking me totally by surprise - with accusations of having a "hidden agenda", which was so hidden it was even hidden from me - I began asking people to read my comments aloud (with a Mel Gibson larrikin Aussie accent) and see if it was still offensive.

Bulletin boards do tend to be less formal modes of written communication, and what I might say in an Aussie pub over a few drinks with other Aussie fans is the style I tend to use when chatting on a bbs. To get more formal than that requires a different approach, and then I'm told I sound stuffy and over-researched. If I'm racing to add to a thread while eating breakfast and getting ready for work, my Aussie approach will sometimes win out.

American fans often forget that a bbs is an international forum, and we've all seen a newcomer berated for poor spelling or grammar only to learn that English isn't their first language. Even the difference in time zones can affect postings. I'm often here talking to myself, trying to stop myself triple posting in a now-quiet thread, while the Americans are at work. Then while I'm sleeping, all Hell breaks out and I only see the aftermath of the flame wars. Again, I'm trying to stop myself triple posting in a now-quiet thread. While a debate is raging, triple-posting is never a problem.

(I know there's a multi-post facility, but it doesn't always like Macs.)

 

[DimesDan]

^^^
There's been a few times like that with me where I've gone to bed but by morning there are fifty new posts (for example in this thread) and if I've wanted to say something, it's normally been said.

 

[Marie1]

Hehehe. Thanks. After being challenged on several occasions, each time taking me totally by surprise - with accusations of having a "hidden agenda", which was so hidden it was even hidden from me - I began asking people to read my comments aloud (with a Mel Gibson larrikin Aussie accent) and see if it was still offensive.

Then you also need a bipedal agenda!!

I don't know where I read this, but Leisner's facebook status is Trouble with Tribbles? That means he's a Klingon!!!

That is one thing I'm curious about, thats being discussed- I don't remember Endgame, was VOY supposed to travel for 16 more years? Was Janeway supposed to be there? Or maybe Janeway, Q or old Janeway altered the timeline?

Alternate timelines tie me in knots.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I don't remember Endgame, was VOY supposed to travel for 16 more years? Was Janeway supposed to be there? Or maybe Janeway, Q or old Janeway altered the timeline?

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Endgame_(episode)

Copy and paste the whole hyperlink. Clicking on it loses the last parenthesis.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Hehehe. Thanks. After being challenged on several occasions, each time taking me totally by surprise - with accusations of having a "hidden agenda", which was so hidden it was even hidden from me - I began asking people to read my comments aloud (with a Mel Gibson larrikin Aussie accent) and see if it was still offensive.

Then you also need a bipedal agenda!!

I don't know where I read this, but Leisner's facebook status is Trouble with Tribbles? That means he's a Klingon!!!

That is one thing I'm curious about, thats being discussed- I don't remember Endgame, was VOY supposed to travel for 16 more years? Was Janeway supposed to be there? Or maybe Janeway, Q or old Janeway altered the timeline?

Alternate timelines tie me in knots.

Yes sadly time travel only works when it gives people a headache.

 

[BillJ]

Voyager was over the moment it hit the Alpha Quadrant. Any writer going forward was going to have to twist logic in order to make a story.

Voyager - After having been exposed to so many types of new anamolies, weapons and the Omega Particle would have been decommissioned. Starship designers, engineers and scientists would be waiting in line for years to get a look. More than likely the ship would have been disassembled.

Janeway - She would have either been returned to her science blues or become a starbase administrator somewhere. Too many questionable decisions to allow her back in the off-center seat.

Chakotay - Former terrorist in charge of a starship? Sure your allies are sleeping easy with him running around with a weapon of mass destruction at his command. His crimes would have been forgiven but he would have summarily been discharged from Starfleet. Paris and Torres would have also been given discharges.

Tuvok - He would have simply went home.

Seven and the Doctor - Neither would have ever left Earth again. Essentially being prisoners in paradise.

Kim - Who cares?

The journey for these characters was over. I don't envy the job that Christine Golden and Kirsten Beyer have had to do.

 

[Lynx]

Voyager was over the moment it hit the Alpha Quadrant. Any writer going forward was going to have to twist logic in order to make a story.

Voyager - After having been exposed to so many types of new anamolies, weapons and the Omega Particle would have been decommissioned. Starship designers, engineers and scientists would be waiting in line for years to get a look. More than likely the ship would have been disassembled.

Janeway - She would have either been returned to her science blues or become a starbase administrator somewhere. Too many questionable decisions to allow her back in the off-center seat.

Chakotay - Former terrorist in charge of a starship? Sure your allies are sleeping easy with him running around with a weapon of mass destruction at his command. His crimes would have been forgiven but he would have summarily been discharged from Starfleet. Paris and Torres would have also been given discharges.

Tuvok - He would have simply went home.

Seven and the Doctor - Neither would have ever left Earth again. Essentially being prisoners in paradise.

Kim - Who cares?

The journey for these characters was over. I don't envy the job that Christine Golden and Kirsten Beyer have had to do.

I can see your point here because Voyager was special in the way the show was about a stranded ship with a crew who were struggling to come home.

But on the other hand, we do have a crew who is more than skilled to deal with long journeys, hardships and new, unexpected situations and who also have a certain chemistry between them. So why don't turn it into an advantage and use those wonderful characters to something better.

Set some admiral to persuade Janeway about the necessarity of send in a ship, most presumely Voyager to some remote part of the galaxy to check out something weird and interesting or send a ship through that newly discovered wormhole to the Andromeda galaxy to check out what the Kelvans are doing (or to the Pegasus galaxy to discover the remnants of Starbase Atlantis ) or something like that.

Of course Janeway would pick her old crew to this mission. After all, they have been through a lot together and she knows she can trust them.

Of course they stumble into Neelix who has been bored almost to death after a year or so on that remote asteroid and now he's looking for his old friends.

At the same time, Suspiria or Q restores Kes to a normal being after that energy-being thing and of course, she joins the expedition too.

Not that would be a lot more interesting for many Voyager fans than killing off the main character and having the rest of them limping around in the Alpha Quadrant like a bunch of lost has-beens.

As I've written before, the Voyager characters are simply too good to be wasted and there is a certain chemistry between them which could be used for further storytelling. Wouldn't that be a great challenge to the Voyager relaunch authors.

I must also write some objections about the comments about the Maquis.

I get the impression that Starfleet seem to have paroled most of the Maquis after the Dominion war. So why shouldn't it be possible for Chakotay, Torres or Paris to serve on a starship. We do have Ro Laren back as security chief on DS9.

 

[BillJ]

Voyager was over the moment it hit the Alpha Quadrant. Any writer going forward was going to have to twist logic in order to make a story.

Voyager - After having been exposed to so many types of new anamolies, weapons and the Omega Particle would have been decommissioned. Starship designers, engineers and scientists would be waiting in line for years to get a look. More than likely the ship would have been disassembled.

Janeway - She would have either been returned to her science blues or become a starbase administrator somewhere. Too many questionable decisions to allow her back in the off-center seat.

Chakotay - Former terrorist in charge of a starship? Sure your allies are sleeping easy with him running around with a weapon of mass destruction at his command. His crimes would have been forgiven but he would have summarily been discharged from Starfleet. Paris and Torres would have also been given discharges.

Tuvok - He would have simply went home.

Seven and the Doctor - Neither would have ever left Earth again. Essentially being prisoners in paradise.

Kim - Who cares?

The journey for these characters was over. I don't envy the job that Christine Golden and Kirsten Beyer have had to do.

I can see your point here because Voyager was special in the way the show was about a stranded ship with a crew who were struggling to come home.

But on the other hand, we do have a crew who is more than skilled to deal with long journeys, hardships and new, unexpected situations and who also have a certain chemistry between them. So why don't turn it into an advantage and use those wonderful characters to something better.

Set some admiral to persuade Janeway about the necessarity of send in a ship, most presumely Voyager to some remote part of the galaxy to check out something weird and interesting or send a ship through that newly discovered wormhole to the Andromeda galaxy to check out what the Kelvans are doing (or to the Pegasus galaxy to discover the remnants of Starbase Atlantis ) or something like that.

Of course Janeway would pick her old crew to this mission. After all, they have been through a lot together and she knows she can trust them.

Of course they stumble into Neelix who has been bored almost to death after a year or so on that remote asteroid and now he's looking for his old friends.

At the same time, Suspiria or Q restores Kes to a normal being after that energy-being thing and of course, she joins the expedition too.

Not that would be a lot more interesting for many Voyager fans than killing off the main character and having the rest of them limping around in the Alpha Quadrant like a bunch of lost has-beens.

As I've written before, the Voyager characters are simply too good to be wasted and there is a certain chemistry between them which could be used for further storytelling. Wouldn't that be a great challenge to the Voyager relaunch authors.

I must also write some objections about the comments about the Maquis.

I get the impression that Starfleet seem to have paroled most of the Maquis after the Dominion war. So why shouldn't it be possible for Chakotay, Torres or Paris to serve on a starship. We do have Ro Laren back as security chief on DS9.

Just because you've done something when you've had to doesn't make you particularly suitable for it. Nor is it something you would likely want to do again.

I hate when they use coincidence to round up the gang. It stretches belief in the story. Worf just happened to be around for both First Contact and Insurrection. Then gave up his ambassador post to come back to the Enterprise for Nemesis. Doesn't work. As much as I love the Original Series, by the time we get to The Final Frontier and The Undiscovered Country the illusion is ruined. McCoy serving as Chief Medical Officer for twenty-seven years.

Things change.

Re: Maquis - Working in the financial services industry for the last decade has made me keenly aware of security. You don't put someone whose stolen money in the position to do it again. Same thing with the Voyager gang. What happens the next time a dispute erupts on the border? Where do their loyalties lye? I can believe in warp speed, transporters and phasers, but a former terrorist commanding a starship... no.

Doesn't Ro Laren work for the Bajorans?

 

[captcalhoun]

actually, NEM was the only one where Worf being around - he's at Riker and Troi's wedding - made a real amount of sense. the stupid part was him being back in black (and grey) as an officer again.

 

[BillJ]

actually, NEM was the only one where Worf being around - he's at Riker and Troi's wedding - made a real amount of sense. the stupid part was him being back in black (and grey) as an officer again.

Right you are.

 

[Defcon]

I can see your point here because Voyager was special in the way the show was about a stranded ship with a crew who were struggling to come home.

But on the other hand, we do have a crew who is more than skilled to deal with long journeys, hardships and new, unexpected situations and who also have a certain chemistry between them. So why don't turn it into an advantage and use those wonderful characters to something better.

Set some admiral to persuade Janeway about the necessarity of send in a ship, most presumely Voyager to some remote part of the galaxy to check out something weird and interesting or send a ship through that newly discovered wormhole to the Andromeda galaxy to check out what the Kelvans are doing (or to the Pegasus galaxy to discover the remnants of Starbase Atlantis ) or something like that.

Of course Janeway would pick her old crew to this mission. After all, they have been through a lot together and she knows she can trust them.

Problem is, that I think it's doubtful that the majority of the crew would be willing to go on yet another long-term yourney directly after coming home from an unplanned one. Beside that it's also highly unlikely that it would be the exact same crew, you still would have new crew members and some of the old left behind.

Of course they stumble into Neelix who has been bored almost to death after a year or so on that remote asteroid and now he's looking for his old friends.

At the same time, Suspiria or Q restores Kes to a normal being after that energy-being thing and of course, she joins the expedition too.

Not that would be a lot more interesting for many Voyager fans than killing off the main character and having the rest of them limping around in the Alpha Quadrant like a bunch of lost has-beens.

And sorry, here at the latest I would put the book aside in pure disbelief and actually would think the people at Pocket Books had lost their mind.

As I've written before, the Voyager characters are simply too good to be wasted and there is a certain chemistry between them which could be used for further storytelling. Wouldn't that be a great challenge to the Voyager relaunch authors.

Actually that was my biggest problem with Voyager, the TV-Series, in my opinion there just wasn't a chemistry between most of the characters nearly as good as in any of the other series. There was a chemistry between some of the characters, but as a whole they never really worked for me.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Actually that was my biggest problem with Voyager, the TV-Series, in my opinion there just wasn't a chemistry between most of the characters nearly as good as in any of the other series. There was a chemistry between some of the characters, but as a whole they never really worked for me.

It was ripe for so many long character arcs. Talk about missed opportunities. The medical staff were killed off in Episode #1, so who got nominated as the fill-in medic? Tom Paris, the most skilled pilot. They start training a replacement nurse and who do they pick: a Delta Quadrant alien female who has a nine-year life span, for a journey that may take 70 years, treating mainly humans? Why not make the Delaney sisters the new nurses? Two great reasons to visit sickbay!

The need to create a generation ship was an important factor. Great, but the only births on this ship are Naomi, to a woman already pregnant before they ship was stranded, and the Paris baby, born as they all return to Earth. We could have had some great family groups built up.

Most opportunities for inter-crew tensions were resolved way too soon: the Maquis, the quirky Bolians, the Equinox survivors, and even the former Borg members.

 

[Square]

Howdy! New to the board.

Anyway, I'm a big 'ole Janeway fan. Love that wacky lady. However, I don't actually have any problem with her being killed-off if it serves the purposes of the story. If anything ticks me off, it was that awful novel she died in. Before Dishonor was pure drek, and I'm not at all impressed she got a call from the horizontal telephone booth in a TNG relaunch novel as opposed to a VOY novel.

But I have complete trust in Beyer. As long as the crew of VOY is as miserable about the whole affair as I am, at least for awhile, I'm happy. I don't understand the mentality that fictional characters must never be hurt or harmed in any way. What gives? If the story is strong, I'm behind it, and I'll be buying Full Circle as soon as it hits shelves.

 

[Square]

Voyager - After having been exposed to so many types of new anamolies, weapons and the Omega Particle would have been decommissioned. Starship designers, engineers and scientists would be waiting in line for years to get a look. More than likely the ship would have been disassembled.

That's not "logic," that's idle speculation. There was absolutely nothing in the show to indicate the ship was ailing. Nothing in the show, and nothing in the relaunch novels.

Janeway - She would have either been returned to her science blues or become a starbase administrator somewhere. Too many questionable decisions to allow her back in the off-center seat.

Canon tells us she was made an admiral. If you disagree with that descision, fine, but it is what happened.

Chakotay - Former terrorist in charge of a starship? Sure your allies are sleeping easy with him running around with a weapon of mass destruction at his command. His crimes would have been forgiven but he would have summarily been discharged from Starfleet. Paris and Torres would have also been given discharges.

Chakotay was an idiot who never should've been in charge of anything, Maquis status nonwithstanding.

Tuvok - He would have simply went home.

Seven and the Doctor - Neither would have ever left Earth again. Essentially being prisoners in paradise.

Based on...?

The journey for these characters was over. I don't envy the job that Christine Golden and Kirsten Beyer have had to do.

If your vision of things had come to pass, I'm sure they would, but that's not what happened, and I'm going to assume Beyer is sticking with canon. The hard part about any of these books is the fragmentation of the crew and trying to please fans who think every VOY character needs to be in every VOY novel.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'm not at all impressed she got a call from the horizontal telephone booth in a TNG relaunch novel as opposed to a VOY novel.

Which is precisely why we get to experience her dying all over again in "Full Circle".

They sell many more TNG novels than VOY novels, so why not present the storyline to the biggest audience possible? With NEM, the character now belongs to both series anyway!

 

[JoeZhang]

That's not "logic," that's idle speculation. There was absolutely nothing in the show to indicate the ship was ailing. Nothing in the show, and nothing in the relaunch novels.

Which wasn't his point. After seven years of being exposed to all sorts of alien technology, he's right that the ship would be of great interest to the scientific and engineering minds of the federation - now if that equates to "never goes into space" ago, while that's a story-telling decision but it's unlikely to leave spacedock

​

for a long period of time...

As for Chakotay becoming Captain, I never bought that for a minute, a decision made worse when his sister arrived, my eyes rolled so much, they came out of my head.

However in some ways, that's in keeping with the series - which on an emotional level was the most unbelievable of all of the series.

 

[Tachyon]

I don't see Chakotay as a captain either. I'd rather see him getting a reason to become a rebel again. Perhaps Janeway's death (boo!) could provide one? And if there were Federation ship called Voyager exploring space in Alpha Quadrant, it should be (IMO) Voyager II. The original one with all its technology should be given to Federation scientists, until put in a museum.

 

[captcalhoun]

Howdy! New to the board.

Anyway, I'm a big 'ole Janeway fan. Love that wacky lady. However, I don't actually have any problem with her being killed-off if it serves the purposes of the story. If anything ticks me off, it was that awful novel she died in. Before Dishonor was pure drek, and I'm not at all impressed she got a call from the horizontal telephone booth in a TNG relaunch novel as opposed to a VOY novel.

But I have complete trust in Beyer. As long as the crew of VOY is as miserable about the whole affair as I am, at least for awhile, I'm happy. I don't understand the mentality that fictional characters must never be hurt or harmed in any way. What gives? If the story is strong, I'm behind it, and I'll be buying Full Circle as soon as it hits shelves.

whilst i disagree with your opinion of BD (i loved it), i am genuinely pleased to welcome you and to read your posts. thank you for being a sane person and not flying off at the handle and acting like a general nutty nut-bar. i do agree, that it's odd they killed Janeway in a TNG novel, but there again, it fit the story.

 

[ClayinCA]

^^^ And ever heard the story of how the TOS was saved?

Yes -- a few million fans wrote actual letters on physical paper, put them in envelopes, attached postage, and mailed them to Paramount.

TOS was not saved by a couple dozen overgrown infants standing on a public streetcorner shouting at passing Gunsmoke fans.

But oddly, that very thing did lead to one extra episode of Misfits of Science, years later. No one knows why.

Semah, you're awesome.

Howdy! New to the board.

Anyway, I'm a big 'ole Janeway fan. Love that wacky lady. However, I don't actually have any problem with her being killed-off if it serves the purposes of the story. If anything ticks me off, it was that awful novel she died in. Before Dishonor was pure drek, and I'm not at all impressed she got a call from the horizontal telephone booth in a TNG relaunch novel as opposed to a VOY novel.

But I have complete trust in Beyer. As long as the crew of VOY is as miserable about the whole affair as I am, at least for awhile, I'm happy. I don't understand the mentality that fictional characters must never be hurt or harmed in any way. What gives? If the story is strong, I'm behind it, and I'll be buying Full Circle as soon as it hits shelves.

As captcalhoun said, welcome to the board! I actually agree with pretty much everything you said, but don't let that stop you.

 

[kimc]

This behavior is also the reason there's the mistaken impression on TrekBBS that there aren't many Janeway fans. There are but they have other more civil boards to hang out at.

And I'd like to know where those are because I have yet to find one. Every board I have ever been on has opinionated people on it including those that have a lot of Voyager fans and nobody can tell me that Voyager fans are nicer than any other group of Trek fans. It's just not been my experience in almost 15 years of using the Internet.

Kevin

The VAMB board is very civil but you probably wouldn't like it becasue it's full of all those "militant Janeway fans" you're so afraid of.

Back to the topic of Janeway I finally picked up the latest Star Trek magazine and there was a great interview with Bryan Fuller. In it he had this to say about Janeway:

I always love Janeway because she's somebody I'd want to have a drink with. If I got the opportunity to hang out with any of the Star Trek captains, I would hang out with Janeway before any of the others. With Kirk, I'd think, "you're a lady-killer and yeah, you're good at your job and everything, but you're a little too cocky for me." And Picard, "You're fantastic and I respect you, but I don't know how to carry on a conversation with you." Sisko was too brooding for me. I love all these characters, but in terms of who would I want to go to dinner with? Captain Janeway every time. Because I feel I can kick back with her.

So it appears it's not only the "militant Janeway women" that are fans of this character. However, it's a sad fact that boards like TrekBBS aren't fully representative of the Trek fanbase. There's a number of reasons for that and I'd like to see that change. I think we would all benefit from that.

Now for those who are about to chime in about Janeway's "inconsistency" Fuller had this observation:

Brannon Braga would always talk about her as she's Mel Gibson from Lethal Weapon. She won't always do the thing that you expect her to do or want her to do, because she's just that person. She's very passionate. I really looked at Janeway through Brannon's eyes of: this is a character who said, "You know what? The rules don't apply out here, so I can't live by the rules because the rules aren't living by me." I think that was a really great way to look at her character.

Looking back, I wish that aspect was more consistent, that she would make more dramatic choices, because I think there were a lot of situations that she was put in that I really identified with her. I identified with how she was really desperate to do good by her people and that shw was hit by things that were wrong. When her crew was wronged, or somebody died on her crew, you saw it more with Janway than you saw it with any of the other characters.

I don't know if it was because she was a woman and I like writing women because you can go emotional places that you can't go with a guy in terms of what people are comfortable seeing. They say, "Why is he weeping?" But if a woman cries out of a situation, then you think she's emotional. You know what? Everybody's emotional and guys cry all the time. We just aren't comfortable seeing it because it's like "Oh, I wouldn't want anybody seeing me doing that." I think there was a fearlessness about her. So I loved writing for Janeway.

My apologies for the long quote but this was a MAN talking about why he liked Janeway as a character and why he liked writing her. I know there are plenty of other male fans of Janway so to dismiss them just because they don't post here regularly is ridiculous.

Once again that was Star Trek Magazine (March 2009) Bryan Fuller interviewed by **rifles through magazine** well, sombody.