Babylon 5 - How Bad was Season 5? Why?

[Mr Light]

I wasn't crazy about the Lennier betrayal but it did track. Still, it was unfortunate and a little abrupt. In S4 Lennier was Sheridan's second in command on the White Star and they certainly seemed buddy-buddy enough, joking with each other and everything. And then when Lennier watches Sheridan and Delenn get to third base he teases Sheridan about it rather than being quietly seething with impotent rage.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I actually skipped the fifth season altogether and went straight from the end of season four to Crusade. It wasn't something I planned on doing, it just kinda happened...

 

[RobertScorpio]

IIRC it was expected to end on series 4 so as much as possible was wrapped up during series 4 - the finale was shot series 4 and held over.

Series 5 is therefore slightly tagged on. Without Claudia.

I actually consider the last episode non-canon because, it too like season 5, feels like someone left a long warm log in the toilet for me to have to see, and then flush....

But..having said that...BAB5 (season 1-4) is one of scifi's best ever...two thumbs up....

Rob

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

IIRC it was expected to end on series 4 so as much as possible was wrapped up during series 4 - the finale was shot series 4 and held over.

Series 5 is therefore slightly tagged on. Without Claudia.

I actually consider the last episode non-canon because, it too like season 5, feels like someone left a long warm log in the toilet for me to have to see, and then flush....

But..having said that...BAB5 (season 1-4) is one of scifi's best ever...two thumbs up....

Rob

How can it be non-canon? JMS wrote it, he directed, and he's the creator of the darned thing. Further, it gives us the ending that was foreshadowed in the fourth season. As Lorian says, "He will have 20 years and just stop."

"Sleeping In Light" is the best finale of a SF-TV series that I've seen so far because like the last chapter of a novel (or an epilogue) it doesn't wait to the last pages to blow its entire wad on spectacle. It gave us an hour to say good-bye to the characters we've watched for five-years and to the station that we became so invested in.

Moreover, that's the best part of Babylon 5 is that it didn't climax -- I'm really going for a metaphor here ain't I? -- in the last episode in some grandstanding two-hours where the majority of it is spent on space battles and less on character.

My fear is that this is what we'll get for nuBSG. I'm hoping that the last hour of that series, at the very least, is a slow burn to the final scene and that the majority of the fighting/gun fire/viper whatever happens long before then.

Nevertheless, I've always felt that "SiL" plays better after the fourth season than it does after the fifth. I told someone once who didn't care for how season 5 started that she could, in theory, skip to "SiL" and end it there. But I also told her that she'd miss all the wonderful Londo and G'Kar stuff in the last half of season 5.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I am not sure if we are talking about the same season 4 ender...

It tells the future of what is to come and jumps up different periods of time. I felt it totally was filler and, just like the final episode of JLU Season Three (the bayman beyond episode) was totally out of place....

Season 4 went one episode too long..IMO...

Rob

 

[Neroon]

You're referring to "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars".

 

[RobertScorpio]

When I watched BAB-5, it was at gun point. I had to watch BAB5 while my friend had to watch DS9. I ended up liking BAB5 a lot, and it was back in the day of VHS. Its perhaps he messed up the viewing order, now that I think about it....but I thought as a series finale, it just was a let down after the next to last episode....it that makes sense....

Rob

 

[Harvey]

If only the situation wasn't so contrived, and Lennier's actions been consistant with the way he acted in every other episode of the series. As it stands, it's bad writing, and it's no wonder that Bill Mumy's performance in the scene is so unconvincing. Probably the worst moment in season five, outside of Byron.

If you look at the shots of Lennier when Sheridan appears on the Zocalo catwalk in "The Summoning" you can see that he's most decidedly not happy to see Sheridan 'back from the dead'. Still, until Sheridan and Delenn got married, he could hope but after that you definitely could see the signs. Delenn was hardly blameless, either, since she knew he had feelings for her but she selfishly kept him near.

Jan

Lennier's feelings towards Sheridan and Delenn are not in question. Lennier acting on those feelings in a way that directly leads to Sheridan's death, and in a way that is both unbelievably staged and written, is in question.

 

[JoeD80]

Lennier's feelings towards Sheridan and Delenn are not in question. Lennier acting on those feelings in a way that directly leads to Sheridan's death, and in a way that is both unbelievably staged and written, is in question.

Doing it directly would be Lennier pushing Sheridan into the sealed off section of the ship, which would be out of character, but that's not what happened. The only reason Sheridan got stuck was because of the auto-sealing the ship did when the coolant leak occurred. It was an indirect thing -- what Lennier did was hesitate to rescue Sheridan and then ran away. Lennier then thought better of it and came back to rescue him, except by then someone else already did it. When I watched this episode with one of my friends who has been in love this much with someone he couldn't have, his comment was "I can relate to that!" It's a dark place to be, but people get there, and Lennier was there.

 

[Harvey]

Lennier not bothering to open the door and Lennier pushing Sheridan into the chamber and sealing it may be different actions/inactions borne of different impulses, but they have the same result. Sheridan dies because of Lennier.

I don't believe Lennier allowing Sheridan to die because Delenn doesn't love Lennier, and having Sheridan out of the picture would just push her further away from Lennier. A believable reaction from Lennier after finally admitting his true feelings a few episodes previous would have been to see him quit the Rangers and leave Delenn, disillusioned. Having Lennier turn his back on his duty, which has always been very important to him (witness his heroism in saving Londo) I have a hard time buying.

But what kills the whole scene isn't the character at all, it's the situation. A white star suffers a huge malfunction on a routine mission (these state of the art vessels have never malfunctioned before, in battle) and both Sheridan and Lennier happen to be nearby the accident when it happens. I could go on, but it just stands out as contrived. And the staging of the scene does not help elevate the writing any in this case.

Have to run to class now.

 

[Mr Light]

Absolutely, the ole' reactor leak scene was so artificially set up it was just awful.

 

[Mal]

Absolutely, the ole' reactor leak scene was so artificially set up it was just awful.

it's like sometimes JMS doesn't even bother trying... witness: raiders, thugs down below, etc.

 

[Stanley]

The first time I saw season 5 I hated it -- Sleeping In Light included. The second time I decided it wasn't so bad. Now I think the Centauri arc is pretty good and telepath arc is okay. Byron was never supposed to be loveable. He despised mundanes as much as Bester did, which led him to make some really stupid, and ultimately fatal decisions. I still can't stand to watch some of the other episodes.

 

[Mal]

Of course, Season 5 also has some of the very best moments of the whole show. One of my favorites is the G'kar farewell:

You see ... I ... I believe that when we leave a place part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go any where in this station when it is quiet and just listen. After a while you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone, our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit that the part of me is going, very much miss the part of you that is staying.

 

[JoeD80]

I don't believe Lennier allowing Sheridan to die because Delenn doesn't love Lennier, and having Sheridan out of the picture would just push her further away from Lennier.

For some reason I only saw this message today and I posted that in February.

Certainly it would push Delenn away if Lennier says "hey, I let Sheridan die in there", but Lennier isn't in a clear state of mind and doesn't believe Delenn would be pushed away. Is he going to say to Delenn that he's the one who let it happen? No, he's probably thinking "everyone will think it's an accident, this is my way in." Certainly from the very beginning of the episode before anyone boards the ship you can see he is not happy about the whole Sheridan-Delenn situation, so when the accident comes around, his thoughts are not in a good place.

A believable reaction from Lennier after finally admitting his true feelings a few episodes previous would have been to see him quit the Rangers and leave Delenn, disillusioned. Having Lennier turn his back on his duty, which has always been very important to him (witness his heroism in saving Londo) I have a hard time buying.

Why is that more believable? He's obsessed with her. His reaction is going to be give up at the point that he lets his true feelings out? This kind of thing often drives obsession further, especially after non-responses such as Delenn gives him about "sometimes in times of great stress we say things" instead of her saying "ok, look, I'm with Sheridan, back off, get it?" That small hope is still there for him. Plenty of people who are otherwise right and honorable get into moments like this. Why can't Lennier?

But what kills the whole scene isn't the character at all, it's the situation. A white star suffers a huge malfunction on a routine mission (these state of the art vessels have never malfunctioned before, in battle) and both Sheridan and Lennier happen to be nearby the accident when it happens.

It was not a huge malfunction, it was a coolant leak. A leak that the ship's automatic systems were dealing with, thus why the doors came down. As for being near the accident, I was standing next to a stove once when it exploded, and the state of the art stove had never malfunctioned before either. People are in random places when accidents happen. As stated in the episode, Sheridan couldn't sit still and was walking around the ship to help himself relax.

 

[JoeD80]

To be honest, I don't care to argue the point any further. The moment always feels forced to me, especially as it is shot and the set is designed.

At first you say, you don't care to argue the point further, and then you continue to argue the point further with the comments on set design. I was addressing specific points you made, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Harvey]

You're right. Comments removed. The argument is too far removed from my memory to make a valid contribution at the moment. Haven't seen the episode in ages, don't have the DVDs on hand, only the gut feeling remains. Move along, nothing to see here.