Babylon 5 - How Bad was Season 5? Why?

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Down Below was always depicted as a barely habitable slum as per my recollection. Previous to Byron, all of the characters that came out of there looked like they lived in a dirty, impoverished place.

As I recall, while Brown Sector includes DownBelow, not all of it is classified as DownBelow since it also houses the Life Support and recycling areas and (I believe) some industrial work. I always thought of is as a less desireable area but not entirely a slum.

Jan

By the tattered curtains and make-shift tenements, I've always considered the majority of DownBelow to be a squatter's village/camp much like those you can find in Metro Manila. There may also be low-cost housing but not much. I thought it was the Grey sections that housed the industrial work ("Grey 17 is Missing"), while Brown sector was unfinished do to budgeting and a rush to get the station online. I know, however, that it is the section closest to the outer hall ("The Long Dark").

 

[JoeD80]

jms said of the gray and brown sectors:

Yes, the grey and brown (slummier) sections are a deliberate design going in; just like in the early days of cross-Atlantic transit, you'd have the wealthy folks who could afford to go first-cabin, and the folks who went steerage down deep in the hold, looking for a new life and new opportunities.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I get it, bad things happened to Telepaths, heck he even helped do it, but he and the telepaths aren't the only ones suffering. Being aware of that as an audience member, his pleas and later Lyta's come off as whining pity parties. The hair just makes him look like a Fabio cover boy, which coupled with the character purpose makes him a ripe subject for ridicule.

I often hear " _FITB__ aren't the only ones suffering" line and I confess I don't get it. I mean, just because there are people worse off, does that mean that the teeps didn't deserve sympathy or help?

The thing with Byron is that he'd developed a coping mechanism by convincing himself that the discrimination that he and his people endured was because they were more highly evolved than the mindanes so when he discovered that his race was created to be cannon fodder his oh-so-careful rationalizations were kicked out from under him and he lost it.

Jan

Going back to G'Kars revelation and explanation to Talon "If we deny the other, we deny ourselves" Byron and Bester are easily seen for what they are, racists. The racism her is based on senses rather than skin color but the argument is the same. Would we call sighted people more human or better than the blind? Would the blind say the sighted are better humans? Psi-ability is used as an excuse for segregation and prejudice on Earth. Bester is a racial supremacist and wants non-telepaths killed off. Byron is more a racial separatist and wants a world separate from non-telepaths. Lyta, sadly falls into this nonsence, which hopefully G'Kar can help her get over.

The show has consistently taken a dim view of racism. It puts that argument most overtly in the episode "Infection” but has put out its views through a number of other episodes. One of the first and most long going statements rises out of the Earth-Minbari war. The war stops because humans have Minbari souls. Later, we learn that what is detected is the genetic trace of Sinclair's DNA that is in the Minbari which the Triluminari is picking up. The Minbari leadership is terrified of revealing the truth. Delenn certainly does not think much of the position since she and much of her family and many other Minbari are children of Vale/Sinclair.

Another place where racism plays out to a bad end is the Markab. The disease that kills them was looked on as a punishment for the impure. While it was confined it was ignored. When it starts to spread through the general population they first deny its existence, then later choose segregation of the population, blaming its spread on contact with lesser races. This only accelerates the disease. The cure is found, ironically for them through study of another race, the Pak'ma'ra. Unfortunately i’s too late for it to be any good for the Markab.

Byron and Bester represent an upholding of racist ideals and Lyta falls for it at first. Presumably G’Kar helps her through it, and the implication of Crusade is that Telepaths are later integrated into society rather than segregated from it. Byron’s arc and the telepaths are very interesting, but the season's use of it would have been better served to have dealt with the issue more thoroughly or do have not dragged it out so long. I also wish they’d had a better actor. Someone with more presence, like Ed Wasser or Wayne Alexander would have served the role far better.

 

[Mal]

...Byron and Bester are easily seen for what they are, racists...
The show has consistently taken a dim view of racism. It puts that argument most overtly in the episode "Infection” ...
Another place where racism plays out to a bad end is the Markab.

Byron and Bester represent an upholding of racist ideals and Lyta falls for it at first. Presumably G’Kar helps her through it, and the implication of Crusade is that Telepaths are later integrated into society rather than segregated from it. Byron’s arc and the telepaths are very interesting, but the season's use of it would have been better served to have dealt with the issue more thoroughly or do have not dragged it out so long.

Fascinating. There are also the Hyach who are dying because they killed off the Hyack-doh. Actually, you might also consider the two other "dying races" (Kosh's words), the Centauri and the Narn. The Centauri killed off the Xon, and the Shadows killed all the Narn mindwalkers (a.k.a., telepaths).

This thread really hammers home how badly JMS dropped the ball on the Season 5 telepath arc. As someone mentioned, it would be awesome if we saw the dwarf telepath who was Ironheart's friend. I thought he added wonderful color to the two episodes he was in.

And what ever happened to the telepaths that the Shadows had altered for use as CPU in their ships, especially Bester's lover Caroline. It would have been awesome to see Bester try and convince Lyta to come back to Earth (or Mars?) to help them (tearing her away from Byron?). Or even if Bester manipulated EarthDome to appoint Franklin as Dr. Kyle's replacement so he could help out with these telepaths.

Finally, Sheridan had recruited a whole bunch of telepaths for the shadow war including using Franklin's underground contacts. Why then did he feel the need for more telepath allies? Why couldn't he recruit them for Alliance covert opps? And why wasn't Franklin the unofficial ambassador to Byron's Telepaths instead of their official contact Garibaldi (who hates them) and their unofficial liaison Lyta (who shouldn't be trusted around them)?

 

[Jan]

As someone mentioned, it would be awesome if we saw the dwarf telepath who was Ironheart's friend. I thought he added wonderful color to the two episodes he was in.

I agree. Trouble is, he was involved with the underground railroad and B5 wasn't part of that after 'A Race Through Dark Places'.

Finally, Sheridan had recruited a whole bunch of telepaths for the shadow war including using Franklin's underground contacts. Why then did he feel the need for more telepath allies? Why couldn't he recruit them for Alliance covert opps?

A fair number of them probably got killed in the Shadow War and a pretty good percentage were probably non-human in the first place. I think that the hard part would be in recruiting human teeps because most were in the Corps and the rest were generally on the run.

And why wasn't Franklin the unofficial ambassador to Byron's Telepaths instead of their official contact Garibaldi (who hates them) and their unofficial liaison Lyta (who shouldn't be trusted around them)?

Why should Franklin have been liaison to the teeps? He hadn't been involved with the underground railroad for over two and a half years and even then his contacts had often been other doctors. Unless Byron had some kind of connection to the underground railroad which we never had any indication of, he wouldn't have had any more reason to trust Franklin than Garibaldi and would have found some other character flaw to attack.

For all that some count these as dropped threads, there were many times that the B5 story moved forward based on some pretty shaky logic chains. Next time you watch the series, keep track of actual Shadow-related incidents on the station itself and you'll realize that Sheridan and the rest were persuaded to fight the Shadow war based mainly on hearsay and one vision.

Jan

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Next time you watch the series, keep track of actual Shadow-related incidents on the station itself and you'll realize that Sheridan and the rest were persuaded to fight the Shadow war based mainly on hearsay and one vision.

Yes but that hearsay sure sounded good when it came from Delenn. She'd convince just about anyone to do anything with that marvelous speaking voice of hers.

 

[Mal]

Next time you watch the series, keep track of actual Shadow-related incidents on the station itself and you'll realize that Sheridan and the rest were persuaded to fight the Shadow war based mainly on hearsay and one vision.

Yes but that hearsay sure sounded good when it came from Delenn. She'd convince just about anyone to do anything with that marvelous speaking voice of hers.

so nice, we hear her version twice

There are beings in the universe billions of years older than either of our races...

the show (obviously), and even The Shadow Within did a pretty bad job, over all, of explaining the Shadow's side, and making it sympathetic.

 

[Gov Kodos]

...Byron and Bester are easily seen for what they are, racists...
The show has consistently taken a dim view of racism. It puts that argument most overtly in the episode "Infection” ...
Another place where racism plays out to a bad end is the Markab.

Byron and Bester represent an upholding of racist ideals and Lyta falls for it at first. Presumably G’Kar helps her through it, and the implication of Crusade is that Telepaths are later integrated into society rather than segregated from it. Byron’s arc and the telepaths are very interesting, but the season's use of it would have been better served to have dealt with the issue more thoroughly or do have not dragged it out so long.

Fascinating. There are also the Hyach who are dying because they killed off the Hyack-doh. Actually, you might also consider the two other "dying races" (Kosh's words), the Centauri and the Narn. The Centauri killed off the Xon, and the Shadows killed all the Narn mindwalkers (a.k.a., telepaths).

This thread really hammers home how badly JMS dropped the ball on the Season 5 telepath arc. As someone mentioned, it would be awesome if we saw the dwarf telepath who was Ironheart's friend. I thought he added wonderful color to the two episodes he was in.

And what ever happened to the telepaths that the Shadows had altered for use as CPU in their ships, especially Bester's lover Caroline. It would have been awesome to see Bester try and convince Lyta to come back to Earth (or Mars?) to help them (tearing her away from Byron?). Or even if Bester manipulated EarthDome to appoint Franklin as Dr. Kyle's replacement so he could help out with these telepaths.

Finally, Sheridan had recruited a whole bunch of telepaths for the shadow war including using Franklin's underground contacts. Why then did he feel the need for more telepath allies? Why couldn't he recruit them for Alliance covert opps? And why wasn't Franklin the unofficial ambassador to Byron's Telepaths instead of their official contact Garibaldi (who hates them) and their unofficial liaison Lyta (who shouldn't be trusted around them)?

Something that the show seems to drive at are that the First Ones represent some kind of evolutionary pinicle from which they are free to leave the confines of the known universe, going beyond the rim. Judging by the Vorlons, and the race in "River of Souls" they are some kind of telepathic gestalt. They have individual consciousness but make up a greater whole.

Some races like the Hyach deplete the genetic pool in a way that kills them off. Others, like the Narn lack the genetic traits of telepathy which perhaps keeps them from achieving First One status. The Centauri may have lost similar important traits by killing the Xon though they do have telepaths.

This I take from JMS's comments that Humans and Minbari achieve a First One state, but Narn and Centauri don't though they don't die out. However, not being First Ones they can't, presumably, pass beyond the Rim. That leaves them dead as far as First Ones go and may be what Kosh meant there.

In all the cases, carving out parts of the gene pool and killing them off is a bad thing in the B5 universe. Real life too.

 

[Mal]

Some races ... like the Narn lack the genetic traits of telepathy which perhaps keeps them from achieving First One status.

...

This I take from JMS's comments that Humans and Minbari achieve a First One state, but Narn and Centauri don't...

that's unfortunate. i had such high hopes for lyta and gkar, sitting in a tree

 

[Gov Kodos]

Some races ... like the Narn lack the genetic traits of telepathy which perhaps keeps them from achieving First One status.

...

This I take from JMS's comments that Humans and Minbari achieve a First One state, but Narn and Centauri don't...

that's unfortunate. i had such high hopes for lyta and gkar, sitting in a tree

No reason they couldn't, depending on their mutual pleasure threshhold , there just won't be any kids. Imagine a universe filled with ginger narn telepaths

The JMS stuff i mentioned above came from the lurkers guide. http://www.ntua.gr/lurk/guide/088.html

It's down toward the bottom of JMS's coments.

 

[Mal]

The JMS stuff i mentioned above came from the lurkers guide. http://www.ntua.gr/lurk/guide/088.html

to wit:

• Did the future humans leave the galaxy as the Vorlons did?
  No point in leaving the galaxy; stars go nova, it only affects the immediate vicinity (big as that is). By this point, they were in the position of the Vorlons, and now have to take their (our) place guiding the younger races, the next wave, while not getting in the way and remembering the lesson of the shadow/vorlon conflict.
• What about the other races?
  The Minbari eventually make it; the Narn and Centauri do not. They don't die out, they just don't hit a state of First One-ishness, which is darn close to immortality (barring violence).

i knew that (from the same source), but i wonder where you get the idea that jms was anti-racist with babylon 5. that it was because the narn lacked telepaths, the centauri killed the xon, the hyach and hyach-doh etc.

here's an interesting thought - maybe the Humans and Minbari reached First One status by intermingling their genes? maybe it was only the line of David (which through Delen, also included in the children of Valen) that was... chosen...

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

here's an interesting thought - maybe the Humans and Minbari reached First One status by intermingling their genes? maybe it was only the line of David (which through Delen, also included in the children of Valen) that was... chosen...

I've always thought that too since there are, early in the series and in JMS's original conception, comments that the Minbari are a "dying race" and that their continued survival depending on "coming together with the other half of their souls."

As for the Narn and Centuri, it would be interesting if in the faraway future that they came together in a mutually beneficial society. The Londo-G'kar friendship writ large.

 

[JoeD80]

And why wasn't Franklin the unofficial ambassador to Byron's Telepaths instead of their official contact Garibaldi (who hates them) and their unofficial liaison Lyta (who shouldn't be trusted around them)?

Garibaldi was the contact because it was Garibalid's idea. He wanted to "move the telepaths from the back pocket to the front pocket."

Unless Byron had some kind of connection to the underground railroad which we never had any indication of, he wouldn't have had any more reason to trust Franklin than Garibaldi and would have found some other character flaw to attack.

Byron knew who Franklin was. He thanked him for helping the telepaths with the underground railroad. I think it was in No Compromises.

the show (obviously), and even The Shadow Within did a pretty bad job, over all, of explaining the Shadow's side, and making it sympathetic.

The show explained the Shadow's side -- it's right there in the episode "Z'ha'dum." The whole point made in the show though, is that the Vorlons and Shadows needed to step aside, and they were *both wrong* in what they were doing.

As for the Narn and Centuri, it would be interesting if in the faraway future that they came together in a mutually beneficial society. The Londo-G'kar friendship writ large.

This reminds me of an interesting thought; I was watching "Midnight on the Firing Line" and there's a foreshadowing for Season 5 right there -- G'Kar says to Londo "one day you'll find our teeth at your throat" -- and then it happens in season 5 in Movements of Fire and Shadow and The Fall of Centauri Prime! Sure G'Kar moved on and evolved beyond it, but the Narns didn't listen to his messages and his prediction came true. It's the connections like this that make me happy for season 5.

 

[Gov Kodos]

The JMS stuff i mentioned above came from the lurkers guide. http://www.ntua.gr/lurk/guide/088.html

to wit:

• Did the future humans leave the galaxy as the Vorlons did?
  No point in leaving the galaxy; stars go nova, it only affects the immediate vicinity (big as that is). By this point, they were in the position of the Vorlons, and now have to take their (our) place guiding the younger races, the next wave, while not getting in the way and remembering the lesson of the shadow/vorlon conflict.
• What about the other races?
  The Minbari eventually make it; the Narn and Centauri do not. They don't die out, they just don't hit a state of First One-ishness, which is darn close to immortality (barring violence).

i knew that (from the same source), but i wonder where you get the idea that jms was anti-racist with babylon 5. that it was because the narn lacked telepaths, the centauri killed the xon, the hyach and hyach-doh etc.

here's an interesting thought - maybe the Humans and Minbari reached First One status by intermingling their genes? maybe it was only the line of David (which through Delen, also included in the children of Valen) that was... chosen...

The anti-racism is something I assume due to the general tenor of the show, not from the Narn and Centauri failing to achieve Firts One status specifically. However, many of the aliens do often engage other species with racialist attitudes. One which says it outright are the Lumati who do not get involved with the evolutionary course of lesser species. (I sometimes wonder if that wasn't a dig at TNG Star Trek's Prime Directive)

Many other aliens espouse similar ideas. The war between Narn and Centauri is often framed in terms of racial superiority, especially by the Centauri. The show poses its answer in the ISA at large and G'Kar and Londo in Microcosm that they can only survive and prosper by giving up old hatreds and prejudices and embracing one another.

 

[Smiley]

I finished my second run-through of the complete series this week. As of now, my opinion is that Seasons 1-4 are of roughly equal quality, while Season 5 suffers noticeably. Even so, the episodes tend to fall in the "tolerable" category. Only one Season 5 episode made my "bad" list: "Secrets of the Soul." That was due to the creepiness of the Lyta-Byron intimacy and having the other telepaths watch (?!).

Byron is really not a bad character to begin with. He makes some good points, and he is generally just an advocate for telepath rights. His writing got noticeably worse in "Strange Relations" and never recovered.

I would not agree that massive character assassination was done to any character besides Lennier. Lyta was treated badly, but she was never that great to begin with, and the character arc was consistent with the Vorlon tampering. The big problem was that the really interesting characters were gone or given too little to do. Besides "Sleeping in Light," was there a decent Sheridan, Vir, Franklin, or Delenn story in Season 5? Londo, G'Kar, and Garibaldi had the best material, and even that was not enough to elevate the season to much greatness.

 

[JoeD80]

That was due to the creepiness of the Lyta-Byron intimacy and having the other telepaths watch (?!).

The idea there is that not every group lives the same way. jms discusses that in the script book. Telepaths dropping all their barriers are not going to have much qualms about other telepaths watching them have sex, and again it's that this group does things in a different way then we are used to.

I would not agree that massive character assassination was done to any character besides Lennier.

Really? You call this character assassination? Lennier obviously had these unrequited feelings in earlier episodes and seasons. It's not like that came out of the blue. It seems absolutely consistent to me to where when he had a chance, he would let Sheridan drop out of the picture so he could be with Delenn. Unfortunate, but true to the character and situation.

The big problem was that the really interesting characters were gone or given too little to do.

This really depends on your definition of who's interesting I suppose, but jms always brought some characters to the front and left others in the background. This happened in all the seasons.

Besides "Sleeping in Light," was there a decent Sheridan

And All My Dreams, Torn Asunder

Vir

Meditations on the Abyss

Franklin

Movements of Fire and Shadow

Delenn story in Season 5?

Learning Curve

 

[Morfius]

After the telepaths pried into the secrets of the alien ambassadors, When the ambassadors called their bluff, they didn't start publishing those secrets on the 'net. Instead, they baricaded themselves in one place where they could be besieged and captured!
WTF?

 

[Mal]

After the telepaths pried into the secrets of the alien ambassadors, When the ambassadors called their bluff, they didn't start publishing those secrets on the 'net. Instead, they baricaded themselves in one place where they could be besieged and captured!
WTF? (emphasis added).

i think you forget, it was a bluff, and the ambassadors called it. the telepaths didn't actually have a whole lot of secrets to publish - they can only pick up on surface thoughts without a deep scan (which i imagine is even harder on aliens).

 

[Harvey]

I would not agree that massive character assassination was done to any character besides Lennier.

Really? You call this character assassination? Lennier obviously had these unrequited feelings in earlier episodes and seasons. It's not like that came out of the blue. It seems absolutely consistent to me to where when he had a chance, he would let Sheridan drop out of the picture so he could be with Delenn. Unfortunate, but true to the character and situation.

If only the situation wasn't so contrived, and Lennier's actions been consistant with the way he acted in every other episode of the series. As it stands, it's bad writing, and it's no wonder that Bill Mumy's performance in the scene is so unconvincing. Probably the worst moment in season five, outside of Byron.

 

[Jan]

If only the situation wasn't so contrived, and Lennier's actions been consistant with the way he acted in every other episode of the series. As it stands, it's bad writing, and it's no wonder that Bill Mumy's performance in the scene is so unconvincing. Probably the worst moment in season five, outside of Byron.

If you look at the shots of Lennier when Sheridan appears on the Zocalo catwalk in "The Summoning" you can see that he's most decidedly not happy to see Sheridan 'back from the dead'. Still, until Sheridan and Delenn got married, he could hope but after that you definitely could see the signs. Delenn was hardly blameless, either, since she knew he had feelings for her but she selfishly kept him near.

Jan