Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[Thrawn]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

Thank you Gorf, I'd like to add one thought. If Janeway is so expendable that future Trek books will not miss her presence, then all arguments centering on how the "impact" of her death progesses the story line will be negated.

If she isn't important then you have no need to kill her off, and if she is important then you need to keep her anyway.

Brit

I would say that what's interesting about her death is that future Trek books will miss her presence. Your logic does not hold.

At the end of Jericho first season, one of my favorite characters was killed. I missed him throughout the second season, he left a palpable hole in the show. That hole was part of what second season was about. It was a part of the story.

And in my own life, I still miss a friend of mine that died three weeks after we both arrived on campus Freshman year of college. He was an amazing guy, the center of every group of people he ever found, funny and enlightening. I knew him for three weeks, 6 years ago. And I still miss him.

Are stories like that not worth telling?

I mean, if you don't want to read them, more power to you; I'm not telling you to buy a book you don't want to read. But important people DO die. Why should that story be off limits?

 

[Defcon]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

If she isn't important then you have no need to kill her off, and if she is important then you need to keep her anyway.

Huh? I think Tuvok would get a seizure trying to follow your logic.

To put it simple for you: The editorial stance at the moment is that she's more "important"/helpful for the future Voyager saga being dead, than she could ever be as an Admiral. What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[Thrawn]

As for Beyer being a Voyager fan, OK I did read her statement but it didn't say anything to me. She calls herself a fan and claims that she loved the series but I do think she's showing it in a very strange way by participating in the killing off of the main character of the series.

Tell me, Lynx, how do you feel about the fact that William Shakespeare killed Romeo, Mercutio, Juliet, Hamlet, Ophelia, Othello, Desdemona, Macbeth, Lear, and Cordelia at the end of their respective plays? Do you think he did this out of spite, out of dislike of the characters, out of a deliberate desire to humiliate, annihilate, and destroy them?

Or do you think he had some other reason for bringing them all to their deaths?

I'm not Lynx, but I can tell you why I feel this way. Shakespeare was writing Tragedy, and he marketed as such.

Trek is supposed to be about hope and us being better than we are. It isn't marketed as Tragedy. We feel betrayed, hence the anger.

Brit

But what's the point in hope if nothing bad ever happens?

Destiny ends with, oh, something like 10% of the Federation dead from Borg invasion. And it's the most hopeful ending of a Trek novel I think I've ever read.

 

[Defcon]

Does anyone know if they've explained why it was Lady Q and Not Q who was speaking with her? Given their history, he would be a far more likely choice.

Not really. There was, as I recall, some kind of line to the effect that Q knew she was going to die and couldn't stand being there to see it.

IIRC actually it was because Q knew Janeway wouldn't listen to him, and hoped that she would listen to his wife.

 

[Sci]

As for Beyer being a Voyager fan, OK I did read her statement but it didn't say anything to me. She calls herself a fan and claims that she loved the series but I do think she's showing it in a very strange way by participating in the killing off of the main character of the series.

Tell me, Lynx, how do you feel about the fact that William Shakespeare killed Romeo, Mercutio, Juliet, Hamlet, Ophelia, Othello, Desdemona, Macbeth, Lear, and Cordelia at the end of their respective plays? Do you think he did this out of spite, out of dislike of the characters, out of a deliberate desire to humiliate, annihilate, and destroy them?

Or do you think he had some other reason for bringing them all to their deaths?

I'm not Lynx, but I can tell you why I feel this way. Shakespeare was writing Tragedy, and he marketed as such.

Trek is supposed to be about hope and us being better than we are. It isn't marketed as Tragedy.

1. Trek is supposed to be about hope, yes, but it's not supposed to be about us being better than we are. That was TNG nonsense that later Trek got away from Trek's real attitude comes from TOS: "We're killers -- but we won't kill today." It's not about BEING better than you are, it's about building a better world than we have today.

2. True, Trek is not a tragedy as a whole. Similarly, Trek is not a comedy as a whole, or a romance as a whole, or a mystery story as a whole. But this does not mean that it should not have individual stories that are tragic, romantic, comedic, or full of mystery.

We feel betrayed, hence the anger.

That's an irrational reaction. You were not betrayed. Did the creators want a tragic consequence to Before Dishonor? Yes. Does that mean that all of Trek is now a tragedy and should therefore be disregarded as no longer hopeful? No. As Thrawn said, what's the use of hope if nothing bad ever happens?

 

[DimesDan]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

Thank you Gorf, I'd like to add one thought. If Janeway is so expendable that future Trek books will not miss her presence, then all arguments centering on how the "impact" of her death progesses the story line will be negated.

If she isn't important then you have no need to kill her off, and if she is important then you need to keep her anyway.

Brit

Her Death will affect the crew of Voyager. As for the other book lines. Titan, nope, no influence really, although Janeway did offer Riker command of her. The Next Generation post Nemesis series, again not really. I think there was a brief scene in Greater than the sum that mentioned her death but thats about it. Deep Space Nice post finale. This is based a good three years before Before Dishonour or so and at the point of Fealful Symmerty, the good ship Voyager is still in the DQ. As for the other series, they don't even exsist in the same century as Voyager.

Oh, and if say Picard was offed, the only book series that his demise would affect is the on going adventures of the Big E-E and maybe due to having Mr and Mrs Troi on board, Titan. It wouldn't affect Voyager nor any of the other series.

 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

As for Beyer being a Voyager fan, OK I did read her statement but it didn't say anything to me. She calls herself a fan and claims that she loved the series but I do think she's showing it in a very strange way by participating in the killing off of the main character of the series.

First of all, I'd like to say that I am a big Janeway fan, and that while I don't disagree with the idea of character deaths at all, I wasn't pleased with the way her particular death was handled. However, I still continue to read because Janeway, while one of my favourites, was not the be-all-and-end-all of Trek lit for me.

I think that what you suggest here, Lynx, is an extremely narrow-minded view. Implying that Kirsten Beyer isn't a fan of Voyager because she writes about the crew after Janeway's death is pretty insulting, not only to Beyer herself but to readers like me that are continuing to follow Trek lit and are intending to buy "Full Circle". The aftermath of Janeway's death has limitless dramatic potential. It shows how the series is developing, and appreciating developments is not a sign that you're not a fan...it's a sign that you're a fan that likes characters to grow and change, which is what Janeway's death will stimulate the people left behind to do.

For the record, Lynx, every regular that isn't Janeway will have an important arc in Full Circle; Beyer has said as much. It is not just about Chakotay's crew; everyone else will feature in the story.

Even Tuvok?

 

[kimc]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

And in my own life, I still miss a friend of mine that died three weeks after we both arrived on campus Freshman year of college. He was an amazing guy, the center of every group of people he ever found, funny and enlightening. I knew him for three weeks, 6 years ago. And I still miss him.

Are stories like that not worth telling?

I am so sorry to hear about your friend and you're right - stories like that are worth telling.

However, the story in "Before Dishonor" was not worth telling. I can give a listing of reasons why not here but they've already been stated elsewhere.

 

[Thrawn]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

And in my own life, I still miss a friend of mine that died three weeks after we both arrived on campus Freshman year of college. He was an amazing guy, the center of every group of people he ever found, funny and enlightening. I knew him for three weeks, 6 years ago. And I still miss him.

Are stories like that not worth telling?

I am so sorry to hear about your friend and you're right - stories like that are worth telling.

However, the story in "Before Dishonor" was not worth telling. I can give a listing of reasons why not here but they've already been stated elsewhere.

Whereas I thought that story was quite worth telling...though I admit to understanding your POV here.

And, either way, the impact of the death I feel is more important than the death itself, so Full Circle is really what we should be basing this on, and we can't yet.

 

[kimc]

For the record, Lynx, every regular that isn't Janeway will have an important arc in Full Circle; Beyer has said as much. It is not just about Chakotay's crew; everyone else will feature in the story.

Even Tuvok?

Another bone of contention for me. Poor Tuvie is all but ignored. As for Janeway the last decent story featuring her was "Isabo's Shirt".

 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

For the record, Lynx, every regular that isn't Janeway will have an important arc in Full Circle; Beyer has said as much. It is not just about Chakotay's crew; everyone else will feature in the story.

Even Tuvok?

Another bone of contention for me. Poor Tuvie is all but ignored. As for Janeway the last decent story featuring her was "Isabo's Shirt".

He's a main character in the Titan books...fits in very well.

 

[Thrawn]

Even Tuvok?

When last we see him in Enemy Of My Enemy, he's a Starfleet Academy teacher; when we meet him at the beginning of Titan, he's an undercover operative in Romulus. I'd hazard a guess that his story will indeed be part of Full Circle.

That said, he is a regular in another series and has a quite interesting character arc going on there, so while he may not be as essential to Full Circle, it's hard to say he's being ignored.

 

[DimesDan]

For the record, Lynx, every regular that isn't Janeway will have an important arc in Full Circle; Beyer has said as much. It is not just about Chakotay's crew; everyone else will feature in the story.

Even Tuvok?

Another bone of contention for me. Poor Tuvie is all but ignored. As for Janeway the last decent story featuring her was "Isabo's Shirt".

Go and read the Titan series of books and you'll be pleasantly surprised

 

[captcalhoun]

Tuvok has a fairly prominent role in the first three Titan novels.

 

[Thrawn]

Actually, we have read the story where Janeway was humiliated, mocked and killed. It was called Before Dishonor, and I didn't think it was a good story, certainly nowhere near justifying the treatment of the character.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Yes, but your problem with that book is not that she was humiliated mocked and killed, it's that it was a bad story. Don't conflate the two.

 

[Gorf]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

The editorial stance at the moment is that she's more "important"/helpful for the future Voyager saga being dead, than she could ever be as an Admiral. What's so hard to understand about that?

It's not hard to understand and I'm not arguing the 'editorial stance' as you call it. They (and you) are entitled to view other fans and shows as more important and obviously they do just that. I just find it sad, is all.

I stopped reading for the very reason that Brit mentions - I got bored with Pocket Book's lack of attention to Voyager and its captain. I'm a Janeway fan first and foremost, and if a book only contain small amounts of her and a boring plot, then I'm not going to waste my money on it when there's so many other good books that I can spend it on instead.

I don't care how many other non-Voyager books Janeway appeared in as these books have very little interest for me, and I think that Pocket Book needs to realize that some (perhaps many, I dont know) readers will only be interested in one show, and Voyager was NOT the show they focused on. I think we can all agree on that.

I bought all the books until the show ended and a few after that, but I never finished reading the last of them. They simply werent interesting enough for me and please don't ask for details - it's been a few years and I'm not going to read them now.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that they're ignoring potential customers. That's their choice and they are free to do so, but it's not going to increase their sales.

Oh and asking me to buy old books and more than one copy of each is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. If I was truly passionate about it and had lost a few too many brain cells, I might do so, but since I'm not...well I'll pass. Thank you.

 

[Thrawn]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

On the other hand, taking all the post-Nemesis fiction and weaving it together so that all the books relate very well might increase their sales, as fans of one line get caught up in others.

It's an odd assumption, to me, that just because they are not getting sales from the "Janeway stories only!" crowd, it follows that overall sales are decreasing.

 

[Lynx]

As for Beyer being a Voyager fan, OK I did read her statement but it didn't say anything to me. She calls herself a fan and claims that she loved the series but I do think she's showing it in a very strange way by participating in the killing off of the main character of the series.

Tell me, Lynx, how do you feel about the fact that William Shakespeare killed Romeo, Mercutio, Juliet, Hamlet, Ophelia, Othello, Desdemona, Macbeth, Lear, and Cordelia at the end of their respective plays? Do you think he did this out of spite, out of dislike of the characters, out of a deliberate desire to humiliate, annihilate, and destroy them?

Or do you think he had some other reason for bringing them all to their deaths?

Please, read Brit's comment. It says everything I wanted to say.

Jean-Luc Picard wrote:

First of all, I'd like to say that I am a big Janeway fan, and that while I don't disagree with the idea of character deaths at all, I wasn't pleased with the way her particular death was handled. However, I still continue to read because Janeway, while one of my favourites, was not the be-all-and-end-all of Trek lit for me.

I think that what you suggest here, Lynx, is an extremely narrow-minded view. Implying that Kirsten Beyer isn't a fan of Voyager because she writes about the crew after Janeway's death is pretty insulting, not only to Beyer herself but to readers like me that are continuing to follow Trek lit and are intending to buy "Full Circle". The aftermath of Janeway's death has limitless dramatic potential. It shows how the series is developing, and appreciating developments is not a sign that you're not a fan...it's a sign that you're a fan that likes characters to grow and change, which is what Janeway's death will stimulate the people left behind to do.

Sorry, but I'm not interested in that "dramatic potential", I'm not interested in any "growths and change" when it means the scenario we see in the current relaunch and I'm not interested in any morgue among the remaining characters. As I see it, all what was magic with Voyager is ruined and destroyed by the "annihilation" of Janeway and the upcoming "official" Voyager stories are not interesting anymore.

As for the statement that all the other characters will be involved, I do hope that they will leave Kes outside this. I just hate the thought of what they can do to continue the destruction of the character.

 

[Trent Roman]

Yes, but your problem with that book is not that she was humiliated mocked and killed, it's that it was a bad story. Don't conflate the two.

Why not? I think it was a bad story in part because a character was humiliated, mocked and killed pointlessly. And I think it was a pointless death because it was a terrible book. I can't seperate the two; they feed off each other.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[kimc]

Even Tuvok?

Another bone of contention for me. Poor Tuvie is all but ignored. As for Janeway the last decent story featuring her was "Isabo's Shirt".

He's a main character in the Titan books...fits in very well.

Really!?