Kes V Seven of Nine

[Ezri II]

I like Kes

Her character was not that great and her species was not the great also.

Thought it was a bad idea to make her species live such short lives. Just me, it just felt like they were not going to keep Kes and Neelix around the full seven years. And yes both never got to Earth.

In fairness, I just like to look at Kes more then Seven.

 

[Lynx]

^^
I never had that feeling. I was absolutely sure that both of them would be on the ship when they arived to Earth (and honestly, they should have been there too).

Neelix stated many times that he would stick with Janeway and the others. Kes was as eager to get to Earth with them too, besides that she wanted to learn and explore. And after "Cold Fire" I was absolutely sure that they would find a way to prolong her lifespan.

The short lifespan was a big mistake, the worst flaw in the character. To be honest, a species with such a short lifespan could never develope into more than primates. Not to mention the error with the "one-child" syndrome. Sometimes I wonder if the writers really did know what they were doing.

Anyway, those errors could have been corrected.

 

[mr.peany]

Add a vote to Kes, she was probably one of the most unique characters ever on Star Trek, she had an innocence that was wonderfully juxtaposed with her dark side. Jennifer Lien played her with a nice reserved demeanour. Seven, was great as well and its interesting to think how the series would have played out had Kes had stayed, whilst as the producers originally planned, Kim had left. The interactions between Kes and Seven would have been great to watch.

 

[Ezri II]

^^
I never had that feeling. I was absolutely sure that both of them would be on the ship when they arived to Earth (and honestly, they should have been there too).

Neelix stated many times that he would stick with Janeway and the others. Kes was as eager to get to Earth with them too, besides that she wanted to learn and explore. And after "Cold Fire" I was absolutely sure that they would find a way to prolong her lifespan.

The short lifespan was a big mistake, the worst flaw in the character. To be honest, a species with such a short lifespan could never develope into more than primates. Not to mention the error with the "one-child" syndrome. Sometimes I wonder if the writers really did know what they were doing.

Anyway, those errors could have been corrected.

After the 1st season I had a feeling that Kes was not going to end up on Earth. There was way to many flaws with her character. In fairness, all the characters had major flaws the 1st season.

Everyone can have a second chance as they can grow out of their 1st season. Kes, darn it is hard to really move from that problem she has a short life and was already 2 years old with six more to go.

In fairness they never killed her off but really they never settled about that. Last as I recall she was in a ship with a return back to her home. Still I think that was in seson five. That has a problem as she would be well 12 years old and sorry to say she would be older then she should be.

 

[exodus]

Comparing Seven and Kes by referring to Seven as a "restart of what Kes was meant to be" is actually wrong because there is too much difference between the characters and their presumed roles in the stories.

They are the same in the aspect that we would be watching them grow up over the course of the series. Their origin and frame of mind is different but their theme remains the same.

You can disagree but an opinion or point of view can't be deemed wrong, please keep that in mind in the future.

There are more differences than similarities between the characters.

When it comes to Kes, we might call her development "growing up" since she was rather young when she came to Voyager. But in her case it's more about learning and exploring since Kes after all was the equivalent to a human 18-25 years old and therefore could be regarded as a grown-up. Besides that, she had had a rich and happy childhood.

When it comes to Seven, it's another story. She was abducted by the Borg as a young child and assimilated. In her case, it was more about someone with a ruined childhod who was trying to rebuild her life again.

The characters also had very different personalities. Therefore it would have been interesting to have both of them on the ship regarding their relationship to Janeway, The Doctor and the other crew members.

Kes' age mentally was hard to figure out, one mintue she was super mature and the next she was very nieve. It's one of the things that puts me off to the character. She gets excited over seeing a Nebula but acts like she's been onboard Voyager before. Neelix was more excited about being on the ship & it's new technology then she did.

Besides, it wasn't that Kes wanted to go to Earth, she just wanted to see what she never had before. She left everybody she knew on Ocampa for strangers. She considered leaving Voyager twice due to the offer of seeing something new. Remember her statement in "CareTaker": I'm too curious and it sometimes gets me into trouble." Regardless of how you feel or the point behind "The Gift", it's why she left then too, she wanted to explore what was happening too her because it was a new experance.

 

[Lynx]

^^
Well, in that case you should blame the writers for the flaws which might have been.

But Kes wasn't the only character they mistreated.

As for neelix being more impressed by Kes over the Voyager thechnology, the point is that they never showed us what Kes might have discovered. Note that "Caretaker" took place at Stardate 48315.6 which according to my calculations is Monday 26 April 2371 while the next episode "Parallax" took place at Stardate 48439.7 which according to my calculations is Thursday 10 June. So Kes had more than a month to be overwhelmed by and learn about the magnificent Federation technology.

Yes, she wanted to travel, learn and explore, that's why she left her homeworld and as she said to janeway in "Caretaker", she wanted to be a part of their journey which I take as her word for wanting to follow the crew to Federation space. She did consider leaving the ship on two occasions but decided to stay among her friends because, as she said in "Darkling", if there would be changes in her life, then she wanted to experience those changes among her friends.

Let me just add a quote from the excellent Voyager novel "The Black Shore" by Greg Cox:

Tom Paris had told her that all Vulcans possessed Tuvok's extreme composure. She found it hard to imagine an entire planet filled with people like Tuvok, but she hoped she would have a chance to visit Vulcan someday, provided that Voyager could find a shortcut home. She had heard so much about the Federation from Tom and the others; she wanted to get there almost as much as the rest of the crew did.

I think that this quote sums up everything about the character Kes and her wishes.

 

[The Borg Queen]

Kes was the only reason I used to watch Voyager, when I heard she was leaving I thought I'd not bother watching it again.

Then I head she was being replaced by a Borg character.

Seven of Nine was the only character that could ever have replaced Kes and kept me a fan of Voyager.

 

[exodus]

^^
Well, in that case you should blame the writers for the flaws which might have been.

But Kes wasn't the only character they mistreated.

As for neelix being more impressed by Kes over the Voyager thechnology, the point is that they never showed us what Kes might have discovered. Note that "Caretaker" took place at Stardate 48315.6 which according to my calculations is Monday 26 April 2371 while the next episode "Parallax" took place at Stardate 48439.7 which according to my calculations is Thursday 10 June. So Kes had more than a month to be overwhelmed by and learn about the magnificent Federation technology.

Yes, she wanted to travel, learn and explore, that's why she left her homeworld and as she said to janeway in "Caretaker", she wanted to be a part of their journey which I take as her word for wanting to follow the crew to Federation space. She did consider leaving the ship on two occasions but decided to stay among her friends because, as she said in "Darkling", if there would be changes in her life, then she wanted to experience those changes among her friends.

Let me just add a quote from the excellent Voyager novel "The Black Shore" by Greg Cox:

Tom Paris had told her that all Vulcans possessed Tuvok's extreme composure. She found it hard to imagine an entire planet filled with people like Tuvok, but she hoped she would have a chance to visit Vulcan someday, provided that Voyager could find a shortcut home. She had heard so much about the Federation from Tom and the others; she wanted to get there almost as much as the rest of the crew did.

I think that this quote sums up everything about the character Kes and her wishes.

If Kes stayed, "Before & After" showed she wouldn't make it to Federation space in her life time. She didn't even make it in anytime line we saw. She went thru changes in "The Gift" and still wanted to leave her friends behind.

As far as the writers, aren't I the one always debating with you to accepting what the writers did with her. I'm the one always trying to explain to you why I understand how she wasn't written well.

 

[Lynx]

^^
Well, in that case you should blame the writers for the flaws which might have been.

But Kes wasn't the only character they mistreated.

As for neelix being more impressed by Kes over the Voyager thechnology, the point is that they never showed us what Kes might have discovered. Note that "Caretaker" took place at Stardate 48315.6 which according to my calculations is Monday 26 April 2371 while the next episode "Parallax" took place at Stardate 48439.7 which according to my calculations is Thursday 10 June. So Kes had more than a month to be overwhelmed by and learn about the magnificent Federation technology.

Yes, she wanted to travel, learn and explore, that's why she left her homeworld and as she said to janeway in "Caretaker", she wanted to be a part of their journey which I take as her word for wanting to follow the crew to Federation space. She did consider leaving the ship on two occasions but decided to stay among her friends because, as she said in "Darkling", if there would be changes in her life, then she wanted to experience those changes among her friends.

Let me just add a quote from the excellent Voyager novel "The Black Shore" by Greg Cox:

Tom Paris had told her that all Vulcans possessed Tuvok's extreme composure. She found it hard to imagine an entire planet filled with people like Tuvok, but she hoped she would have a chance to visit Vulcan someday, provided that Voyager could find a shortcut home. She had heard so much about the Federation from Tom and the others; she wanted to get there almost as much as the rest of the crew did.

I think that this quote sums up everything about the character Kes and her wishes.

If Kes stayed, "Before & After" showed she wouldn't make it to Federation space in her life time. She didn't even make it in anytime line we saw. She went thru changes in "The Gift" and still wanted to leave her friends behind.

As far as the writers, aren't I the one always debating with you to accepting what the writers did with her. I'm the one always trying to explain to you why I understand how she wasn't written well.

Well, "Cold Fire" showed that it was possible to prolong her lifespan.

The "changes" in "The Gift" were actually ridiculous. The writers wrote it that way because it was decided that the character should be dumped and they had to come up with something which would cause the character to leave as soon as possible, no matter how ridiculous and unrealistic the plot might have been.

As for "understanding that the character wasn't written well", I do think that there is a slight difference between your opinion and mine when it comes to that. I can actually see flaws in the character (as in many Star Trek characters) but the flaws aren't worse than they could be rewritten and in some case accepted.

As for accepting what the writers did to her, it's out of the question for reasons I've mentioned many times before and because of what is and what has been, the chances for you to make me change my mind are rather small.

 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

^^
Well, in that case you should blame the writers for the flaws which might have been.

But Kes wasn't the only character they mistreated.

As for neelix being more impressed by Kes over the Voyager thechnology, the point is that they never showed us what Kes might have discovered. Note that "Caretaker" took place at Stardate 48315.6 which according to my calculations is Monday 26 April 2371 while the next episode "Parallax" took place at Stardate 48439.7 which according to my calculations is Thursday 10 June. So Kes had more than a month to be overwhelmed by and learn about the magnificent Federation technology.

Yes, she wanted to travel, learn and explore, that's why she left her homeworld and as she said to janeway in "Caretaker", she wanted to be a part of their journey which I take as her word for wanting to follow the crew to Federation space. She did consider leaving the ship on two occasions but decided to stay among her friends because, as she said in "Darkling", if there would be changes in her life, then she wanted to experience those changes among her friends.

Let me just add a quote from the excellent Voyager novel "The Black Shore" by Greg Cox:


I think that this quote sums up everything about the character Kes and her wishes.

If Kes stayed, "Before & After" showed she wouldn't make it to Federation space in her life time. She didn't even make it in anytime line we saw. She went thru changes in "The Gift" and still wanted to leave her friends behind.

As far as the writers, aren't I the one always debating with you to accepting what the writers did with her. I'm the one always trying to explain to you why I understand how she wasn't written well.

Well, "Cold Fire" showed that it was possible to prolong her lifespan.

The "changes" in "The Gift" were actually ridiculous. The writers wrote it that way because it was decided that the character should be dumped and they had to come up with something which would cause the character to leave as soon as possible, no matter how ridiculous and unrealistic the plot might have been.

As for "understanding that the character wasn't written well", I do think that there is a slight difference between your opinion and mine when it comes to that. I can actually see flaws in the character (as in many Star Trek characters) but the flaws aren't worse than they could be rewritten and in some case accepted.

As for accepting what the writers did to her, it's out of the question for reasons I've mentioned many times before and because of what is and what has been, the chances for you to make me change my mind are rather small.

"Cold Fire" is one of my favourite episodes; in my opinion, it's the only time that Kes was allowed to live up to her potential.

 

[exodus]

As for accepting what the writers did to her, it's out of the question for reasons I've mentioned many times before and because of what is and what has been, the chances for you to make me change my mind are rather small.

I guess saying: "No Shit!?" would be the understatement of the year.


BTW: "Coldfire" said her life could be extented thru technology. Which was also an idea the EMH had in "B&A".

Jean-Luc, I agree.

 

[Lynx]

Yes, the Ocampa on Suspiria's array had some thechnology or method for that which could have been used in a possible story.

 

[ZERO_of_ZERO]

Seven of course
Kes was nice too.

Im not sure how old Kes was to start with, but if she had stayed for the whole series wouldn't she be dying of old age as they were reaching Earth? (After 7 years travel and if she only lives to 9)
Not a happy ending.
(I think this has been mentioned before)

 

[Lynx]

Seven of course
Kes was nice too.

Im not sure how old Kes was to start with, but if she had stayed for the whole series wouldn't she be dying of old age as they were reaching Earth? (After 7 years travel and if she only lives to 9)
Not a happy ending.
(I think this has been mentioned before)

Her lifespan could have been prolonged.

There were hints for such a solution, most notably in "Cold Fire".

 

[exodus]

Seven of course
Kes was nice too.

Im not sure how old Kes was to start with, but if she had stayed for the whole series wouldn't she be dying of old age as they were reaching Earth? (After 7 years travel and if she only lives to 9)
Not a happy ending.
(I think this has been mentioned before)

Her lifespan could have been prolonged.

There were hints for such a solution, most notably in "Cold Fire".

.....but what if the writers didn't want too?

If she stayed, we'd have to consider that a possability.

 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

Seven of course
Kes was nice too.

Im not sure how old Kes was to start with, but if she had stayed for the whole series wouldn't she be dying of old age as they were reaching Earth? (After 7 years travel and if she only lives to 9)
Not a happy ending.
(I think this has been mentioned before)

Her lifespan could have been prolonged.

There were hints for such a solution, most notably in "Cold Fire".

.....but what if the writers didn't want too?

If she stayed, we'd have to consider that a possability.

Seeing Kes grow old at an accelerated rate as her crewmates age normally could have been an interesting dynamic if used right; if done wrong, though, it could have also been disastrous.

 

[Lynx]

Seven of course
Kes was nice too.

Im not sure how old Kes was to start with, but if she had stayed for the whole series wouldn't she be dying of old age as they were reaching Earth? (After 7 years travel and if she only lives to 9)
Not a happy ending.
(I think this has been mentioned before)

Her lifespan could have been prolonged.

There were hints for such a solution, most notably in "Cold Fire".

.....but what if the writers didn't want too?

If she stayed, we'd have to consider that a possability.

Since it actually were hints in some episodes for a prolonging of her lifespan, we can assume that the writers at least considered it as a possible option.

Otherwise they would have been stuck with the problem of using make-up to make Kes look very old for every episode in the later seasons which could have created some problems. It's no problem to use make-up to create a Klingon, Vidiian or Talaxian but in most cases it look horrible and very artificial on humans.

The problem with the writers is that sometimes it looked like they didn't know what they were doing and also that they didn't care about what they were doing either. The nine-year lifespan was a joke since it should have been clear for the writers that no species can develope to more than primates with such a short lifespan, not to mention the "one-child" syndrome which simply wouldn't work in reality since it would lead to the extermination of the species. And no, I won't go into that rubbish with delivering the children from the back, the mating procedure and all that.

It was like the writes tried desperately to come up with some novelties, like "oh, we haven't had that in Star Trek before" and when it didn't work it was like they just kept the ball rolling, like "oh, never mind, the viewers won't notice". As we can see, the nine-year lifespan is hardly mentioned after season 1, it's only brought up in occasional episodes just for the sake of it. Otherwise it's just like it's never existed.

Since the writers did often go for easy solutions, prolonging the lifespan would have been a valuable option for them.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well Seven would have been stuck in a Borg maturation chamber that they would have force aged her to a more productive point in her life cycle, so really she had similar issues... Then of course you have to wonder if Borg age? And if that's even half true, if the doctor turned her aging back on since it serves no real purpose? So then obviously she would be the opposite of kes but still kes if she considers that her life span is now fractionally maybe a tenth what it would have been as borg that she is exactly like Kes hanging around humans whenever she thinks about home.

 

[kimc]

Seeing Kes grow old at an accelerated rate as her crewmates age normally could have been an interesting dynamic if used right; if done wrong, though, it could have also been disastrous.

I agree. It would have been a great opportunity to explore various issues surrounding aging. However, the writers must have decided that aging would not appeal to their target demographic. Better to send Kes out while she was still young and beautiful I guess.

 

[Lynx]

^^
It could have been a reason for her leaving in season 4. However, I still have the feeling that Kes's exit was too quick to be planned as some way to write out the character before any problems with her aging started. If they really wanted her to leave because of problems with her aging, they could have had the decency to let her leave with Zahir in "Darkling" instead of coming up with that "energy-being" mumbo-jumbo.

And they could have spared us from the character destruction in "Fury".