When was Bashir replaced by a Changeling?

[Timo]

To the contrary, it appears to me that staying on the defensive would have been utterly suicidal. The Klingons were outnumbered - they would have been slaughtered if they spread themselves out in waiting for Dominion attacks, and if they concentrated their forces to defend specific systems, the Dominion could have just waltzed in to the undefended systems.

By attacking, Gowron achieved two major tactical victories. First, he successfully hid the fact that the Alpha side was down for the count. Second, he took the initiative, forcing the Dominion to be the side that had to guess where the next hit would fall, and thus to spread out its forces.

That's how it's generally taught in the military academies, from what I hear (and from what I learned in my brief stint in our mandatory military service). If you are hopelessly outnumbered, your two options are to surrender or to attack; defense is not an option.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hermiod]

^Attacking to throw your enemy off is one thing. Attacking Sarpedion V, described as the headquarters of the Cardassian 12th Order is another. They would be needlessly throwing lives and ships away.

Martok specifically says that 15 Vor'cha-class Attack Cruisers would be incapable of even scratching the enemy defenses. Attack vulnerable targets of opportunity, not massively fortified installations.

Attacking in the manner seen in "Once More Unto the Breach" makes more sense. Send in your smaller ships in small groups, hit them and get out of there.

 

[Timo]

Which, slightly scaled up, would be what sending 15 Vor'chas against a stronghold would equate to...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hermiod]

^Vor'cha's are your big strike cruisers. They're not designed for quick raids.

DS9's "Return to Grace" suggested that they have the firepower to strike at even underground bases, yet 15 of them wouldn't scratch Sarpedion's defences.

 

[Timo]

Vor'cha's are your big strike cruisers. They're not designed for quick raids.

Umm, the name would suggest that this is exactly what they are designed for...

And they appear at least as fast as the smaller BoPs, so they would be at least as good in hit-and-run. The heavy firepower would seem to be a must against well-fortified targets, and it would probably best be spent in attacking targets of high value.

Really, "big cruisers" is what quick naval raids were predominantly conducted with, back in the days before long range aircraft and radar. The use of smaller craft required special arrangements, such as tender vessels, or towing to save fuel and fight the rough seas, or sailing in stages.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hermiod]

^Martok specifically ruled out the use of B'Rel cruisers in "Once More Unto the Breach" because he felt they were too slow. The kind of attack I'm suggesting takes place just as much in the planet's atmosphere as it does in space. There's no evidence that Vor'cha's are even capable of that.

Vor'cha's have great forward firepower, but seem to lack coverage. That's where the maneuverability of K'Voort's comes in to it. They may also lack anything but forward weapons but at least they can move.

Besides, the Dominion aren't idiots. As soon as they get reports of Klingon ships attacking their positions and no such reports of Starfleet or Romulan ships doing the same, they'll figure out what's going on and start hitting Federation and Romulan targets.

The limited Klingon forces will not be in a position to do anything about it because their most powerful ships are off fighting battles they can't win.

 

[Timo]

Hmm...

^Martok specifically ruled out the use of B'Rel cruisers in "Once More Unto the Breach" because he felt they were too slow.

TrekCore is down with a nasty virus, so I'll take your word on this... All the more reason to argue that Klingons would value speed when conducting raids, and therefore go for the big, fast ships rather than the small, slow ones whenever possible.

The kind of attack I'm suggesting takes place just as much in the planet's atmosphere as it does in space.

Why would the Klingons conduct that sort of an attack at Sarpeidon V, though? Raiding from orbit would be just as valid, and would alarm the Dominion just as much, tying down their forces. "If they can spare fifteen heavyweights just to rattle us, they must be well stocked with ships..."

There's no evidence that Vor'cha's are even capable of that.

But we have seen far larger starships, such as the E-D, operate rather effortlessly within an atmosphere, and even play at the edge of the envelope to goad a smaller and supposedly more agile enemy into revealing himself ("Arsenal of Freedom"). So I'd argue that special evidence would be needed to establish that a Vor'cha cannot do atmospheres.

Vor'cha's have great forward firepower, but seem to lack coverage. That's where the maneuverability of K'Voort's comes in to it. They may also lack anything but forward weapons but at least they can move.

It would seem that even midsize Birds of Prey can fire aft, as in "Way of the Warrior" where three BoPs (of which at least two are the same size but the third might differ) fire wingtip cannon at Dukat's ship, but one also fires an aft-facing disruptor.

And the Vor'chas bank quite nicely in "Way of the Warrior", and the somewhat larger Voodiehs of "All Good Things..." demonstrate even greater agility; the impression that the type would be sluggish and weak would mainly come from "Redemption", and there we could argue that Gowron's ship was in the process of "building up steam" and incapable of normal action when the enemy pounded her to a state of even greater incapability.

Besides, the Dominion aren't idiots. As soon as they get reports of Klingon ships attacking their positions and no such reports of Starfleet or Romulan ships doing the same, they'll figure out what's going on and start hitting Federation and Romulan targets.

The thing is, this didn't happen. Gowron's instinct was right: his actions saved the Alpha Quadrant from an expanded Dominion/Breen attack.

Although much of that attack might have been empty bolstering to begin with, with the Breen perhaps unwilling to commit themselves, and the Dominion disinterested in a breakthrough and more interested in solidifying their positions and escalating a bit more. Dunno. Whatever the reason, Gowron's strategy worked perfectly well.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hermiod]

TrekCore is down with a nasty virus, so I'll take your word on this... All the more reason to argue that Klingons would value speed when conducting raids, and therefore go for the big, fast ships rather than the small, slow ones whenever possible.

K'Voort-class Birds-of-Prey have the advantage there.

Why would the Klingons conduct that sort of an attack at Sarpeidon V, though? Raiding from orbit would be just as valid, and would alarm the Dominion just as much, tying down their forces. "If they can spare fifteen heavyweights just to rattle us, they must be well stocked with ships..."

I never suggested that, I suggested hitting targets of opportunity, not suicide missions.

But we have seen far larger starships, such as the E-D, operate rather effortlessly within an atmosphere, and even play at the edge of the envelope to goad a smaller and supposedly more agile enemy into revealing himself ("Arsenal of Freedom"). So I'd argue that special evidence would be needed to establish that a Vor'cha cannot do atmospheres.

The Enterprise-D was certainly not capable of flying around inside a planetary atmosphere in the same way a Bird-of-Prey would be. Voyager's ability to land was presented as a rarity.

The thing is, this didn't happen. Gowron's instinct was right: his actions saved the Alpha Quadrant from an expanded Dominion/Breen attack.

They didn't get the chance. Worf killed him before it got that far.

Although much of that attack might have been empty bolstering to begin with, with the Breen perhaps unwilling to commit themselves, and the Dominion disinterested in a breakthrough and more interested in solidifying their positions and escalating a bit more. Dunno. Whatever the reason, Gowron's strategy worked perfectly well.

It only lasted for days. It never had a chance to have a serious effect.

 

[indranee]

I tend to think Rapture.