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Why it is important some people are unhappy

Vance, will you go and see it, then come on here and tell us you like it if you do like it? I'm sure we'll hear about it if you don't. :)
 
Thus, Star Trek becomes and anthology show

TOS was essentially an anthology show. The episodes were designed to be played, mostly, in any order and GR and other production team members sometimes overwrote their own past canonical events and character details when the needs of the script warranted it.

Spock's heritage (his parents were "ancestors"), Kirk's three/one nephew(s), Kirk's middle initial, UESPA/Starfleet, etc...
 
Yet again, another 'defense' of the new movie that's pretty much insulting the franchise thus far... Really, it does bring home the "Star Trek for people who hate Star Trek" meme pretty solidly, doesn't it?

I've been defending JJ's right to make a new ST movie to satisfy 2009 audiences. I'm really looking forward to seeing his take on TOS. I also love "Lost" and "Cloverfield".

I am an avid ST fan since December 1979 and did my homework by spending the early 80s tracking down all of TOS, TAS - and every licensed tie-in ever drawn or written. I went to all ST movie sequels' premiere nights - in costume, usually. I've bought all the DVDs.

So do I hate ST, too?
 
Hell if you feel so strongly about it dude, I'll pay for yah to go see it :)

*laughs*

Like I said, right now, the movie looks bad to me, so I won't catch it in theatres (unless there's a dramatic change in the marketing or something in the next few months). Now, if it really is just insanely bad marketing and it actually seems to be a good movie based on the consensus reviews, I'll know about it from HERE and just catch it.. what.. a month or two later when it comes to BluRay?

But skipping it in theatres? I just don't feel I'm really missing out.

Now, if the theatre experience was really good, and affordable, and not the expensive pain-in-the-ass it is today, I would look at Trek as a 'second tier' movie for me, and go see it in a cheap seat. But, since that's not really an option... it's actually just cheaper and easier (emphasis on easier) for me to get it on disc when the time comes.
 
So do I hate ST, too?

If your defense of the movie consists of "Yeah, Star Trek is stupid and silly, but it's ALWAYS been stupid and silly," as some have stated here, can't you see why it would be easy to draw that conclusion?
No, because you confuse "stupid and silly" with "I don't like it." Both with fans here and JJ Abrams. Knight Rider (the original) is stupid and silly, but I love it. Eureka is stupid and silly, but I love it. A lot of Stargate is stupid and silly, but I love it. Doctor Who, old and new, is stupid and silly ("Would you mind not farting while I'm saving the world?"), but I love it and have watched it most of my life. Star Trek TOS is stupid and silly, but I love it anyway. Because it was fun. Because it was entertaining. Because it was goofy.

As for what Trek I DO like? I like TOS. I liked TNG at the time but don't find a lot of it re-watchable now. I like DS9. I didn't like Voyager on original airing, but I've been catching re-runs and am finding that with some distance from seeing B&B's storytelling, it's a lot more watchable. But my Star Trek love? Star Trek's 2-4 and 6. And maybe First Contact. I love those movies and watch them repeatedly even now.
 
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And so long as it was a stand-alone project, I wouldn't give a rip either way.

But second that "Star Trek" label gets attached, it carries with it a responsibility to the rest of the franchise, just like any segment of any other series.

It appears that JJ is not living up to that responsibility.

No it carries no responsibility to anyone or anything except the box office and to provide good entertainment.
This is a fictional Universe and in no way changes or erases anything on our beloved DVDs.
Otherwise it's a reboot. Soft, hard, erotic, XXX. Canon is nothing more than an anchor holding it down.
Hopefully, and it seems this way, Abrams is cutting the chain.
Lemme try to strike a middle path between you and CRA here.

On the one hand, while some of the changes that have been teased cause me concern, I'm not at all convinced that JJA has necessarily undermined or betrayed or violated what Trek is all about. In fact, I remain cautiously optimistic, and looking forward to learning more about the movie, and I certainly plan to see it.

On the other hand... we as audience shouldn't really give a hoot about story considerations driven by "box office" as opposed to creative integrity, and what qualifies as "good entertainment" can't be determined in a vacuum when there's such a well-known label ("Star Trek") attached. Canon isn't a "chain," it's what gives you a fictional universe rather than just a random assortment of unrelated stories. And I certainly hope what JJA is doing doesn't wind up having to be categorized as a "reboot."
 
OK, so you can stretch a message from those stories, but without the message you'd just have a sequence of events anyway. I wouldn't expect a soap opera to carry any particular message in its story lines, but what about other sci fi? Are Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica (both versions), Star Gate, Dr Who stories devoid of such content? Serious question because its not the message in the episodes that consciously sticks with me.

I know Star Trek is good, I like it, and I know it carries social commentary, but its not the collection of parabels that some fans hold it to be...
I don't think anyone's saying it's in a class by itself; I think they're saying that philosophical considerations are an essential aspect of pretty much any good SF, including Star Trek.

Certainly Trek has been of uneven quality over the years, and I wouldn't say that every episode lives up to that standard. The good ones do, however.

The same is true (in spades) of B5, and of the new BSG. (I can't comment on Stargate or Dr. Who as I don't watch them, and IMHO original BSG is as devoid of thoughtful content as Star Wars.)

I can hope JJA's Trek will be more like TOS, B5, and nuBSG than like Star Wars (especially the godawful prequels), but I'm not confident about it. Hence the concern. I want a thinking person's entertainment, not just a roller-coaster ride.
 
So do I hate ST, too?

If your defense of the movie consists of "Yeah, Star Trek is stupid and silly, but it's ALWAYS been stupid and silly," as some have stated here, can't you see why it would be easy to draw that conclusion?
No, because you confuse "stupid and silly" with "I don't like it."
That's hardly an unreasonable conclusion for people to draw. Both terms are generally derogatory, after all.

If someone wants to defend Star Trek as a "guilty pleasure," then they should really make it unequivocally clear that that's what they're doing.

Star Trek TOS is stupid and silly, but I love it anyway. Because it was fun. Because it was entertaining. Because it was goofy.
...As you do here. Props to you for that, at least. Of course, other fans are certainly free to disagree about the terms on which it can be enjoyed.

I do disagree: I tend not to like things that are stupid and silly, but I do like TOS. "Fun," yes; "goofy," not so much... at least not in the good episodes. And it tended to have more of those, and to hit an impressively high level of storytelling more consistently, than any of the follow-up series in the franchise, IMHO.

But my Star Trek love? Star Trek's 2-4 and 6. And maybe First Contact. I love those movies and watch them repeatedly even now.
I completely agree with you (and countless others) that those are the best of the movies. I completely disagree, though, if you consider them "stupid" or (except for a few moments of STIV) "silly."
 
If your defense of the movie consists of "Yeah, Star Trek is stupid and silly, but it's ALWAYS been stupid and silly," as some have stated here, can't you see why it would be easy to draw that conclusion?
No, because you confuse "stupid and silly" with "I don't like it."
That's hardly an unreasonable conclusion for people to draw. Both terms are generally derogatory, after all.

If someone wants to defend Star Trek as a "guilty pleasure," then they should really make it unequivocally clear that that's what they're doing.

Star Trek TOS is stupid and silly, but I love it anyway. Because it was fun. Because it was entertaining. Because it was goofy.
...As you do here. Props to you for that, at least. Of course, other fans are certainly free to disagree about the terms on which it can be enjoyed.

I do disagree: I tend not to like things that are stupid and silly, but I do like TOS. "Fun," yes; "goofy," not so much... at least not in the good episodes. And it tended to have more of those, and to hit an impressively high level of storytelling more consistently, than any of the follow-up series in the franchise, IMHO.

But my Star Trek love? Star Trek's 2-4 and 6. And maybe First Contact. I love those movies and watch them repeatedly even now.
I completely agree with you (and countless others) that those are the best of the movies. I completely disagree, though, if you consider them "stupid" or (except for a few moments of STIV) "silly."
Absolutely not. The movies, by and large, avoid the silly. But large swaths of TOS ARE. Giant space hands. Space hippies. Alternate versions of the US and Soviet Union. A freaking Liberace clone. There are also pieces that are NOT goofy. But yeah, a lot of TOS is stupid and silly. Maybe not for you, and go you, but yeah, space hippies are silly.

And pieces of the later series are silly. Transwarp lizards. Space Nazis. Most of the stories involving Ferengi. That doesn't mean Trek is a guilty pleasure for me, so please do not presume to interpret what's in my head. It means I can look at Space Hippies and go, "Wow, that's kinda silly." But I can also look at an episode such as City on the Edge of Forever and recognize outstanding storytelling, or In the Pale Moonlight as an examination of the decisions made in the time of war. But they still had Abraham Lincoln, a guy walking around without his brain, and the Enterprise crew at the showdown at the OK Corral. If you don't find any of that silly, good for you. To me, and a LOT of other people though, it is.
 
Now, if the theatre experience was really good, and affordable, and not the expensive pain-in-the-ass it is today, I would look at Trek as a 'second tier' movie for me, and go see it in a cheap seat. But, since that's not really an option... it's actually just cheaper and easier (emphasis on easier) for me to get it on disc when the time comes.

Oookie doke dude. Offer stands till May 1st.

You really don't like the theatre experience? I own all of my favorite movies on DVD but can never bring myself to watch them at home. The theatre just always seems to be the authentic experience, an event to go take part in. Oh wells, I guess there's reasons it could be a hassle.


On the other hand... we as audience shouldn't really give a hoot about story considerations driven by "box office" as opposed to creative integrity, and what qualifies as "good entertainment" can't be determined in a vacuum when there's such a well-known label ("Star Trek") attached. Canon isn't a "chain," it's what gives you a fictional universe rather than just a random assortment of unrelated stories. And I certainly hope what JJA is doing doesn't wind up having to be categorized as a "reboot."

I do give a hoot. I enjoy watching movies I like have big box office numbers, usually improves the longevity of whatever that franchise is. I don't think creative integrity has been sacrificed at all and infact enhanced.

And I am rooting for a reboot. Successful reboot, 40 mores years and then another. I've watched this Trek Universe over and over again and enjoy it and will continue to even with the new one. But I like the idea of getting a fresh new outlook on familiar characters and events with some new twists.

If you don't find any of that silly, good for you. To me, and a LOT of other people though, it is.

Silly and sometimes "stupid" seeming for sure. But we say that in an endearing way. Most people are taking it so wrong when the term "stupid and silly" is used. Most of Trek has been. But I/we love it and enjoy it. Not saying it makes Trek bad in anyway. Just being real with what it sometimes is.
 
Silly and sometimes "stupid" seeming for sure. But we say that in an endearing way. Most people are taking it so wrong when the term "stupid and silly" is used. Most of Trek has been. But I/we love it and enjoy it. Not saying it makes Trek bad in anyway. Just being real with what it sometimes is.
Absolutely. It doesn't make Trek bad, just silly many times. But in a GOOD way. In an enjoyable fun way. But silly nevertheless.
 
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Silly and sometimes "stupid" seeming for sure. But we say that in an endearing way. Most people are taking it so wrong when the term "stupid and silly" is used. Most of Trek has been. But I/we love it and enjoy it. Not saying it makes Trek bad in anyway. Just being real with what it sometimes is.
Absolutely. It doesn't make Trek bad, just silly many times. But in a GOOD way. In an enjoyable fun way. But silly nevertheless.

Corrected :)
 
Nothing wrong with silly (sorry, but after reading through this whole intensive thread there are too many things I'd like to say --mostly wondering about how people can get worked up about this-- and so i end up saying just this: nothing wrong with silly)...
 
Important life lesson coming:

Someone is ALWAYS unhappy, and more than half the time it will be you.

Abrams didnt specifically set out to make a movie you'd hate or destroy your favorite film franchise because he doesn't know who the hell you are.

You are not a special unique snowflake.

The universe does not revolve around you.

Your tastes are not universal.

There are many movies you do not like, and they don't all suck. In fact, some movie you hate might be someone's favorite movie!

And neither of you are wrong!

See how that works?
 
I don't think any of ST is silly. I think it's all, clever, imaginative, stuff.

Voyager is a bit childish, but even that's good, and better than other SF.
 
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