Andrew Probert and Rick Sternbach: The New Enterprise

[AJBryant]

There is something I just fundamentally don't get.

People say "the TOS Enterprise wouldn't look good on the big screen."

Why NOT?

If it's a lack of "surface detail," that could surely be brought out by subtle aztec-ing, and the bussards could be given bitchin life on the big screen -- all without actually changing the design.

Maybe I'm a throwback, but there's nothing I want to see MORE on the big screen than the Enterprise that *I* love.

 

[SonicRanger]

... Maybe I'm a throwback, but there's nothing I want to see MORE on the big screen than the Enterprise that *I* love.

My advice, then, is to use your high-definition projector and DVD player to watch TOS Remastered on your living room wall... or the side of your house.

 

[Vance]

Dear Sonic,

It's a literary term called "Suspension of Disbelief". Just because it's 'fantasy' or 'magic' or 'science-fiction' doesn't mean that there are no rules.

 

[JuanBolio]

Rules shmules. You can find the crack in the event horizon of any rule.

 

[Vance]

Rules shmules. You can find the crack in the event horizon of any rule.

I was going to follow up by pointing out that one of VOY and ENT's biggest problems was their constant 'ignore the rules' approach to the science-fiction aspect of their story telling, in order to TRY to be nice... but, hell, you just put it out there anyway.

 

[SonicRanger]

It's a literary term called "Suspension of Disbelief". Just because it's 'fantasy' or 'magic' or 'science-fiction' doesn't mean that there are no rules.

And? How does your contention that we must suspend our disbelief (in exchange for entertainment) bolster either the "form follows function" claim or an assertion that PhII and TMP were acceptable visual reboots while STXI is not? Support your argument better than merely professing "Suspension of disbelief, suspension of disbelief!" and "But there are rules!"

 

[Santaman]

I guess its simple, the TMP refit still looks like its the Enterprise, its a believable upgrade.
The problem is that the Rebootprise doesn't look like the TOS Enterprise or the TMP refit at all, also to some people its simply ugly as hell, so why do you wonder about people not finding it a suitable update?

 

[SonicRanger]

I guess its simple, the TMP refit still looks like its the Enterprise, its a believable upgrade. The problem is that the Rebootprise doesn't look like the TOS Enterprise or the TMP refit at all...

Within the apparent context of the film, that's not a problem.

...also to some people its simply ugly as hell, so why do you wonder about people not finding it a suitable update?

And to some people the TOS Enterprise is ugly as sin too. But the argument others are using isn't "I think it's ugly so I don't like it." Instead, they're trying to say "It is illogical to the Trek universe" or "It was designed by power-mad ass-wipes who hate Trek," neither of which are factual statements.

 

[Santaman]

^^ That comes with the territory I think, if you want to make a TOS movie then you at least need to use a few recognisable items, the TOS Enterprise probably one of the most if not THE most recognisable item of TOS and to some the 1701 is not just some Sci Fi ship, there's that little extra that has grown through the more of 40 years of Trek history.

 

[Manticore]

I guess its simple, the TMP refit still looks like its the Enterprise, its a believable upgrade.

Hardly. Look here to demonstrate how hard it is to believe that the refit is the original ship. They'd basically have had to strip the ship down to its space-frame (and make some alterations to that as well). I suppose that that's technically a refit, since they're keeping the same spaceframe, but it's closer to a reconstruction.

 

[Vance]

Within the context of the story, the Enterprise (U) was indeed a reconstruction. They actually explicitly state it as such within the dialog of the movie, more than once. The Phase II ships (any of the three we actually call Phase II) would have had the same story.

The NuEnterprise is supposed to be the same ship as the TOS Enterprise, which is one of the most iconic symbols of all science-fiction, ever. Period.

Why anyone insists on not noticing the difference is completely beyond me.

 

[JuanBolio]

Why anyone insists on not noticing the difference is completely beyond me.

I notice the difference. I just accept it. Would I have prefered something closer to the original? Yes. Do I prefer the original? By far. But I understand why they did what they did, and this new ship has the potential to be pretty cool in its own right.

 

[Vance]

Why anyone insists on not noticing the difference is completely beyond me.

I notice the difference. I just accept it. Would I have prefered something closer to the original? Yes. Do I prefer the original? By far. But I understand why they did what they did, and this new ship has the potential to be pretty cool in its own right.

I think that what bothers me is that there are 'fans' who are dismissive of other fans having an emotional attachment to the Gray Lady, as they are dismissive of anyone who just thinks that - barring any other issues - that the new ship is just plain ugly.

Indeed, while there has indeed been some 'fan' hostility about the new ship, aimed at some 'supporters', it's been the supporters of the new ship (and Movie) who have levelled, by far, the most vitriolic hatred at anyone not 100 percent on board with Abrams. Even saying "I don't like the new ship, though I know why they felt they needed to update it" is enough to declare an emotional jihad. (See the XI forum for a plethora of examples.)

Personally, I really don't like the ship, but I'm more than sick of the so-called 'fans' who are saying, with a straight face, that I'm an awful, terrible person who should simple DIE in his old age because I can't wholly embrace the 'new' flavor of Kool-Aid today.

 

[JuanBolio]

Yes. They indeed suck.

 

[Santaman]

I guess its simple, the TMP refit still looks like its the Enterprise, its a believable upgrade.

Hardly. Look here to demonstrate how hard it is to believe that the refit is the original ship. They'd basically have had to strip the ship down to its space-frame (and make some alterations to that as well). I suppose that that's technically a refit, since they're keeping the same spaceframe, but it's closer to a reconstruction.

I suggest you look up HMS Renown, HMS Warspite and the Italian and Japanese WW-1 vintage battleships, in some cases their refits were far more extensive then that of the Enterprise, hulls were extended, bulged, totally gutted, the entire powerplant and superstructure replaced, main weapons upgraded, armour refitted, redistributed and almost none of their other main systems left untouched but still they were the same ships, I dare you to tell anyone who has served on Warspite after her refit that she wasn't actually the Warspite he served on.

 

[SonicRanger]

I'm more than sick of the so-called 'fans' who are saying, with a straight face, that I'm an awful, terrible person who should simple DIE in his old age because I can't wholly embrace the 'new' flavor of Kool-Aid today.

Dramatize much? No one has said any such thing, including me.

 

[Ronald Held]

Juan, in very episode we know the main characters are extremely unlikely to die, or the core Federation worlds eradicated.
How much can you change in the 23d century, and leave the 24d where "old" Spock came from essentailly the same?

 

[JuanBolio]

Juan, in very episode we know the main characters are extremely unlikely to die, or the core Federation worlds eradicated.
How much can you change in the 23d century, and leave the 24d where "old" Spock came from essentailly the same?

Who says it will be?

 

[ST-One]

The NuEnterprise is supposed to be the same ship as the TOS Enterprise,

Yes, and her design was approached by a new designer for a new audience in a new (visual) time.

 

[Manticore]

I guess its simple, the TMP refit still looks like its the Enterprise, its a believable upgrade.

Hardly. Look here to demonstrate how hard it is to believe that the refit is the original ship. They'd basically have had to strip the ship down to its space-frame (and make some alterations to that as well). I suppose that that's technically a refit, since they're keeping the same spaceframe, but it's closer to a reconstruction.

I suggest you look up HMS Renown, HMS Warspite and the Italian and Japanese WW-1 vintage battleships, in some cases their refits were far more extensive then that of the Enterprise, hulls were extended, bulged, totally gutted, the entire powerplant and superstructure replaced, main weapons upgraded, armour refitted, redistributed and almost none of their other main systems left untouched but still they were the same ships, I dare you to tell anyone who has served on Warspite after her refit that she wasn't actually the Warspite he served on.

I'm just saying, poorly admittedly, that refitting the new Enterprise to the original would hardly be less believable than the original to the TMP Enterprise, at least in terms of plausibility. If you can accept that the TMP Enterprise is the same ship as the original, then I don't see why you can't make the leap from the New Enterprise to the original. It wouldn't be any more serious of a reconstruction at all.

As for the new Enterprise and the original, I believe that how things look is the least important part of the continuity (Trills, the various screens in the Defiant that depict a rather different ship with only the vaguest similarity to her, the rather extensive differences that the original Enterprise and the Enterprise-D could undergo in the same episode), because various visual times make mistakes, or have to take shortcuts, or a new designer wants to make his mark, etc. Admittedly, there are few "visual reboots" in Trekdom as extensive as this, the last being in 1987, and the one prior to that in '79. What's more important to continuity is the major character points, and the major historical points. In that vein, Abrams "breaking the rules" comment with regards to the Romulans is far more worrisome to me than the new look of the Enterprise.