Finished Bablyon 5 for the first time (spoilers)

[Reverend]

I agree with Jan. Some things are nobody's business but those directly involved and speculating based on incomplete information and supposition is just futile and more than a little rude.
He left, he came back and left again. End of.

As for what would have been better in retrospect; that is also rather pointless since you can't possibly plan for everything.
I think I read somewhere that JMS compared writing B5 to publishing a novel one page at a time, so once a page was done, backtracking, rewriting or rethinking really isn't an option. At least not if you want the story to have some semblance of coherence.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

I too agree with Jan. It is what it is. The show we got is the show we got even if I am curious what the series would've been like had Sinclair stayed. A curiosity that's been sated with the release of Vol. 15 of the script books.

 

[Jan]

I think I read somewhere that JMS compared writing B5 to publishing a novel one page at a time, so once a page was done, backtracking, rewriting or rethinking really isn't an option. At least not if you want the story to have some semblance of coherence.

I think he likened it to the trick the Harlan Ellison used to do, sitting in a shop window and writing a story. As each page was finished, it would be put up in the window so there couldn't be any revisions.

Jan

 

[Candlelight]

Are all the script books out or are there some to come?

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

I finally finished B5 today. A very heart tugging final episode. My overall take on the series is that it was a very good space opera. Though, it did not, in the overall, meet the expectations that had been set up for me by people here. It's not the best scifi show ever written, but it ranks high. I will say that it did have episodes that did meet that high expectation. Here's how I rank the seasons.

That's pretty much my thoughts too. It's biggest strength is just a generally well plotted story arc, made more impressive by all the newer stories about stuff that had to be changed, the fact that its so cohesive and strong is really a strong point.
Downsides imo are just a bunch of bad and cheesy dialogue and generally subpar acting, at times elevated by the actors' earnestness - particularly Bruce who I dont think is a particularly good actor but really manages to be likeable with his earnestness. Kind of reminds me of Mark Hammill in the original SW, its bad acting but he throws himself into it with such schmaltzy earnest that you cant help but like him anyways.
I'd say its somewhat overrated by a small very vocal group, but its overall still one of the better scifi shows of the last 20 years.

 

[Jan]

Are all the script books out or are there some to come?

The 14-volume set of the scripts for the series is complete and no longer available for sale. After that the three Other Voices were published and they're no longer available, either. A call went out for questions to ask JMS about the movies but no on-sale date has been announced for that volume yet, nor for Crusade.

Jan

 

[JoeD80]

This is probably more than I should quote but it sums up what JMS has consistently said over the years. From Volume 3 of the script books:

Reasons for the change on all sides makes sense to me. Not that it's any of my business.

I posted it in the other thread too, but here's the a relevant quote from Michael himself:

Yes, [jms & I] had some interesting talks. And I agreed with him that the show needed to take another direction. The Sinclair character had reached its pinnacle of definition.

 

[JoeD80]

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/misc/cc-leave.html

You can read it all, there.

In the end, she was fired.

B.

She couldn't have been fired because she refused to sign the option to extend her contract, so she wasn't on contract at all by the time the renewal came around. (An extension that she convinced the rest of the cast to sign, but didn't sign herself btw). Therefore, she just had no job at the time.

edit: (oops, sorry for posting twice, I didn't realize I was in the same thread)

 

[Jan]

^^ Exactly. There was no option on her services which would have bound her to accepting the terms of the contract. Since she had refused to sign the option extension she simply wasn't employed any longer. WB made her an offer at the same terms anyway but she tried to renegotiate. It didn't work. People can go back and forth about how much time she asked to have off or whether she was trying to get a raise or whatever but the bottom line is that she refused to sign the contract and therefor *quit* the series. Even she admits it these days.

ETA: JoeD80, where did you get the O'Hare quote?

Jan

 

[JoeD80]

ETA: JoeD80, where did you get the O'Hare quote?

I have a lot of B5 notes that I don't remember where I picked them up from, but I have a note on this one that says scifi.com DragonCon '97.

 

[Angel4576]

I'd say its somewhat overrated by a small very vocal group, but its overall still one of the better scifi shows of the last 20 years.

As massive a fan as I am of the show, I'd agree with the comments around dialogue and acting performance. To be fair though, in terms of the performances I do tend to think that sometimes this was more down to the dialogue that they were given than any natural talent that they may or may not have had. As much as I liked Boxleitner, he was severely hampered at times by clunky/embarassing dialogue.

Of course, I should qualify this by saying that the dialogue wasn't uniformly bad, it was just uneven. At times it was brilliant, other times, positively cringe-worthy.

In terms of the overall merits of the series, I'd have to say that for me, it's up there with the original Star Trek, and The Twilight Zone. Obviously, it was always going to be more of a niche show, given it's location on the PTEN network and relatively small audience, but the wider impacts of its existence and the influence it's had on the genre since, serve to justify it as an iconic series. DS9's often hailed as bold and groundbreaking for the way in which it deviated from the Trek 'norm', but B5 helped set the new standard for the entire genre. It pushed the fusion of sci-fi and serialisation to a completely different level, even beyond that of DS9.

There's certainly the weight of expectation on the show for new viewers, and in truth, it's almost impossible to live up to that promise. For me, I'd liken it to Farscape, which despite it's much heralded reputation, never quite achieved 'classic' status in my eyes.

I'd love to see a JMS/Whedon collaboration. JMS providing the concept/big picture stuff, with Whedon providing the characterisation and dialogue, could be the stuff of legend.

 

[Neroon]

I'd say its somewhat overrated by a small very vocal group, but its overall still one of the better scifi shows of the last 20 years.

That is quite probably true ... just as it is for pretty much every single show espoused on this board. Every fandom has a few extremists who go too far over the top in lauding their favorite show. Babylon 5 is no exception. There is a small subset of its considerable fanbase that tend to embarrass me as a fan myself with their hyperbole.

 

[JoeD80]

To be fair though, in terms of the performances I do tend to think that sometimes this was more down to the dialogue that they were given than any natural talent that they may or may not have had. As much as I liked Boxleitner, he was severely hampered at times by clunky/embarassing dialogue.

Of course, I should qualify this by saying that the dialogue wasn't uniformly bad, it was just uneven. At times it was brilliant, other times, positively cringe-worthy.

Well that is all subjective yes? I loved all the dialogue through the show personally. I love the serious lines. I love the silly lines. My girlfriend hated Sheridan's long speeches but liked everything else. It's a matter of taste really. The question I ask myself is, was the dialogue natural to the characters? I think 99% of it was.

 

[Jan]

IMO, where the dialogue was sometimes clunky was when the character got saddled with all sorts of exposition. JMS made the choice that it would be better to get more story on the screen rather than committing to a "Previously on Babylon 5" sequence in the teaser so he had to ensure that new viewers got the info they needed from each episode.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Whedon/Straczynski collaboration but it should be noted that Whedon does great *banter*, not necessarily great dialogue.

Jan

 

[JoeD80]

IMO, where the dialogue was sometimes clunky was when the character got saddled with all sorts of exposition. JMS made the choice that it would be better to get more story on the screen rather than committing to a "Previously on Babylon 5" sequence in the teaser so he had to ensure that new viewers got the info they needed from each episode.

The only part where this really jumped out at me was in "Messages from Earth" where Garibaldi recaps what happens in the comic before he brings out the Psi Corps badge (and he doesn't mention Sinclair by name either; I'm assuming that was a decision to not confuse new viewers, because it seems weird that Garibaldi wouldn't just say "Sinclair & I crashed on Mars." IIRC, he just says "a friend and I") This is one of those 1% not natural to the character things to me.

 

[Jan]

The only part where this really jumped out at me was in "Messages from Earth" where Garibaldi recaps what happens in the comic before he brings out the Psi Corps badge (and he doesn't mention Sinclair by name either; I'm assuming that was a decision to not confuse new viewers, because it seems weird that Garibaldi wouldn't just say "Sinclair & I crashed on Mars." IIRC, he just says "a friend and I") This is one of those 1% not natural to the character things to me.

The more I watch it the more instances jump out at me. Poor Ivanova seemed to catch a lot of it with "I suppose I should have expeceted it when (recap)" and things like that. For the most part I appreciated the reminders even if it was a bit clunky at times.

For B5 I preferred this method. For Buffy and other shows I prefer the "Previously" segments.

Jan

 

[David cgc]

The only part where this really jumped out at me was in "Messages from Earth" where Garibaldi recaps what happens in the comic before he brings out the Psi Corps badge (and he doesn't mention Sinclair by name either; I'm assuming that was a decision to not confuse new viewers, because it seems weird that Garibaldi wouldn't just say "Sinclair & I crashed on Mars." IIRC, he just says "a friend and I") This is one of those 1% not natural to the character things to me.

JMS's explanation (which I bought) was that he didn't want to name Sinclair in front of the IPX lady because he wasn't sure how trustworthy she was. "Need to know" and all that.

 

[Forbin]

The only part where this really jumped out at me was in "Messages from Earth" where Garibaldi recaps what happens in the comic before he brings out the Psi Corps badge (and he doesn't mention Sinclair by name either; I'm assuming that was a decision to not confuse new viewers, because it seems weird that Garibaldi wouldn't just say "Sinclair & I crashed on Mars." IIRC, he just says "a friend and I") This is one of those 1% not natural to the character things to me.

JMS's explanation (which I bought) was that he didn't want to name Sinclair in front of the IPX lady because he wasn't sure how trustworthy she was. "Need to know" and all that.

Ah! Having not read the comic, that screen moment went right past me without noticing.

 

[JoeD80]

JMS's explanation (which I bought) was that he didn't want to name Sinclair in front of the IPX lady because he wasn't sure how trustworthy she was. "Need to know" and all that.

Ah well that makes sense.

 

[Angel4576]

Garibaldi's story in Messages from Earth was a nice nod to the events of the comic. I wasn't particularly irked that Sinclair wasn't namechecked there.

Re the dialogue, I'd agree that it's subjective. I think the alien ambassadors got off quite lightly in this regard, either that or they had the gravitas to pull it off.

The exposition point is also one that's well made. Sadly, it tended to be Ivanova, Sinclair and Garibaldi that got the brunt of it, which, Garibaldi aside, didn't exactly endear them to me. Sheridan got a fair bit of it as well at times, but fortunately, Boxleitner's charisma managed to carry it. IMO at least.