Dollhouse in Trouble?

[3D Master]

Firefly failed because it was a boring pile of junk. And considering I watched it at a time before I wisened up on Joss Whedon, and that the real quality of BtVS and Angel didn't come from him, but one David Greenwalt who kept him ground and focused on the good stuff, you can understand what this means. At the time I was one of the guy's greatest fans, during the first show I kept watching my watch whether it was getting close to be over already. Ten minutes into the second I had done the same twice over, by the third watch I realized; these is boring crap, I'm not wasting my time watching boring crap, and turned it off.

His comics work is no better, and Buffy S8 is so horrible it isn't even funny. The main characters that are supposed to be heroes are really villains the way they're written. Villains that need to be annihilated from where I'm sitting.

The result being; I can't care less about any Joss Whedon project, and won't be watching. No matter how much I love Eliza Dushku, I won't be surprised this won't reached mid-season, nor will I shed a tear.

 

[Ethros]

^ So if you now hate all his stuff and think it's "boring crap" why did you spend your money on the comics then? And seem to keep reading even though they're "boring crap"?
Why? Oh wait, it's 3D Master. That's why

 

[3D Master]

^ So if you now hate all his stuff and think it's "boring crap" why did you spend your money on the comics then? And seem to keep reading even though they're "boring crap"?
Why? Oh wait, it's 3D Master. That's why

Firefly is boring crap, I never said the same about the rest.

And no, I did NOT keep reading them. Six or seven issues and I quit.

I happen to be a Buffy fan, you see, EARLY Buffy fan, back when she and her compatriots were still heroes. So I happen to be part of several Buffy pages and saw the previews of Buffy. For a moment there, in the beginning of the book, it seemed like early Buffy was back, and the horror of S6 and especially S7 was behind us.

But it soon degenerated into even worse piles of crap, so I quit.

However, as I'm part of those Buffy pages, I do regularly come across more previews and spoilers, and when I check them out, I find to my consternation its getting worse by the issue, and I thank god I quit reading that crap.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Not to go off topic...but...

Why is the concept of Firefly so "bizarre"? I've never understood that.

Because it's the old west. With spaceships.

On the surface, seems pretty silly, don't it?

The no-aliens rule was a frakkin great idea, tho. BSG has also benefitted from it - keeps the gimmickry level down.

 

[stj]

The level of upset seems excessive. Banks are going broke, so a lowly TV network might want to pinch pennies and shut production while the cheap writing part is under way.

But of course it might be that Fox is ordering retools because they think there's something wrong with the show. The thing is, there's already reason to think the suits might be right. The whole premise is already shaky---ordinary money buys lots and lots of prostitutes ready, willing and able to live out all sorts of fantasies. But if the Dollhouse process does more, why are the Dollhouse owners farting around with a high tech bordello, instead of doing that other, probably more lucrative, stuff?
For example if the FBI guy investigating the Dollhouse is himself a Doll (the likely import of dark hints,) why don't Dolls infiltrate something more significant than an after hours vice squad?

Or to put it another way, Eliza Dushku is the star. Therefore the series is supposed to be about her. But that trailer suggests that the interesting question of whether Dushku's character is a Happy Hooker or a White Slave is going to be told by a minor character! That is, if it even gets told. It may just be put out there, to lie unused. Sidelining such a key plot point is dodging the drama.

On the other hand, it is not a bit obvious that this means the Fox suits already have the knives out for high brow stuff they are too stupid to understand. It seems to me that studio executives cry all the way to the bank when they are criticized as boobs. Writers on the other hand sell their reputation. When a Whedon or a Wolfe screws up, the executives often seem willing to soften the blow by letting it be understood that the product wasn't bad but too high brow. Believe that one with discretion.

 

[amdmiami]

How can everyone be judging this show before it even comes out? Thats like saying you think a certain food is gross but you've never tried it! Lets have a little Faith (pun intended) in Joss. The only thing I find weird is that he didn't move this show over to another network were it may have had a chance to live. Maybe CW because almost everything else on that channel sucks.

I really hope this show is going to be on par with Buffy and Angel. This may be Joss's last chance to make a show.

 

[Bishbot]

His comics work is no better, and Buffy S8 is so horrible it isn't even funny. The main characters that are supposed to be heroes are really villains the way they're written. Villains that need to be annihilated from where I'm sitting.

What have they done that's especially villainous or worthy of annihilation?

 

[JoeZhang]

^ So if you now hate all his stuff and think it's "boring crap" why did you spend your money on the comics then? And seem to keep reading even though they're "boring crap"?
Why? Oh wait, it's 3D Master. That's why

Firefly is boring crap, I never said the same about the rest.

After hearing so much about it - I tried a few episodes of firefly last night - I thought it was average. I'd would have watched it if I has nothing to do but I wouldn't go out of my way to find it.

 

[Lindley]

That "tipping point" I mentioned before. You aren't there yet. You may never be. But, if you do reach it....

And considering I watched it at a time before I wisened up on Joss Whedon, and that the real quality of BtVS and Angel didn't come from him, but one David Greenwalt who kept him ground and focused on the good stuff, you can understand what this means.

It's certainly true that Joss works better as a team than solo. On Firefly he had Tim Minear, whose subsequent efforts have been pretty good as well (if equally short-lived). Serenity didn't have Minear's input and it suffers for it. (Ben Edlund also had some input into Firefly.)

 

[FordSVT]

The only thing I find weird is that he didn't move this show over to another network were it may have had a chance to live. Maybe CW because almost everything else on that channel sucks.

Why are you under the impression that he had a choice of where to make his next show?

Lke I said up thread, it doesn't appear any of the other big networks are chomping at the bit for him to develop a show for them, which is why I don't get all of the vile hatred for Fox.

 

[Lindley]

The only reason Joss came back to TV at all is because of that lunch with Eliza working out as it did. Wouldn't make much sense to approach another network when her contract was with Fox. We'll see what the future holds.....

 

[DigificWriter]

The only thing I find weird is that he didn't move this show over to another network were it may have had a chance to live. Maybe CW because almost everything else on that channel sucks.

Why are you under the impression that he had a choice of where to make his next show?

Lke I said up thread, it doesn't appear any of the other big networks are chomping at the bit for him to develop a show for them, which is why I don't get all of the vile hatred for Fox.

A lot of Joss Whedon fans still hold bitter feelings towards FOX because of what happened with regards to Firefly (feelings that are 100% justified given the facts [which I previously outlined] of how the network's previous chief executive behaved with regards to Joss and that series). Although the network now has new people in charge, it's still hard for a number of die-hard Joss fans to forgive and forget (I'm not one of them, as I'm more than willing to give the new FOX regime the benefit of the doubt, especially given what they've done with regards to DH to demonstrate their faith in the project and in Joss).

 

[Pingfah]

His comics work is no better, and Buffy S8 is so horrible it isn't even funny. The main characters that are supposed to be heroes are really villains the way they're written. Villains that need to be annihilated from where I'm sitting.

What have they done that's especially villainous or worthy of annihilation?

Christ, don't ask that.

Please.

 

[Ethros]

^ Mmm, I might have to get that Spike "Not this shit again" pic on standby

 

[Bishbot]

^ Mmm, I might have to get that Spike "Not this shit again" pic on standby

lol, I'm sorry - I suppose I saw a can of worms standing there and just sort of dived right in. Personally I'm loving Season 8 - its the comic I most look forward to every (ish) month.

 

[Ethros]

^ It's good, but Angel: After The Fall is way better

 

[Alaedhros]

Christ, don't ask that.

Please.

^ Mmm, I might have to get that Spike "Not this shit again" pic on standby

I feel like I should apologise to you two (and a few others), because I was the one that asked that in the last thread. In my defense, I'm newer to Buffy/Angel, so I'd never read 3DMaster's opinions; now that I have, I realise that it just derailed the entire thread. Hopefully it won't do so here.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Fox is in trouble on several fronts - Monday and Friday are bad, Wednesday is weak. And the "real" TV season hasn't even gotten into full swing! Dollhouse is going to get a longer leash (in terms of not being quickly cancelled) as a result.

I think this just all just Fox's attempt - counterproductive or otherwise - to ensure they have something viable for midseason when the cancellation axe falls heavily on their other shows.

 

[tharpdevenport]

A TV budget and the resutls of which, is what kept Joss Whedon bounded by reality. No matter what project he does, you can see his talent and creativity in there, but as pointed out, a lot of good stuff also comes from his creative team. IT's a shame really that he didn't form a good creative team for the Season 8 comics.

It's gone from potentially good, to okay, to blah, to bad, to I just don
t even really care what happens anymore, and the art work has been nothing short of TERRIBLE. I have been giving serious consideration to stop buying the Season 8 comics because of the subpar wirting, crappy art, and ridiculous events.

With an unlimited budget and no one appearently telling him when he's off the mark, Joss has fallen into a pit of crappy creativity and ruined what could have been something very special.

When reading "Angel" Season 6, it becomes very, very, VERY appearent where all his attention was going. The complex plotting, story lines and events are all building up to something interesting. You could read some of the earlier issues and have a general idea of what was happening, but because of hos it was written and parts not divuldged yet, it was like one giant riddle. Another shame is that the art work for this comic has been only a few steps above BTVS S8 -- and that's not saying much. He found a winner with artist John Cassaday on the three year The Astonishing X-Men comics; too bad he didn't carry over that artist to his BTVS S8 work.


And finally, while I loved the first "Serenity" comic trilogy, I found the second to be boring. In fact, if I had it to do over again, I would not have purchased those.

But taking into consideration he two movie scripts (one un-used), was working on all those, Dr. Horrible, a personal life, and then doing this TV series, I think it's understandable the drop in quality. One can only hope he focuses his main energy on the show and not worry about "the new morons at FOX".

 

[Cap.T]

Whedon gives an update on Dollhouse:
http://whedonesque.com/comments/17945

Among the things he mentions:

• The original pilot won't see the light of day
• The character November has been dropped but the actress is playing a different part
• Steven DeKnight wrote and directed an episode that "saved the shows ass" and departed Dollhouse after that because his consulting stint was over
• As of Monday Jane Espenson will work on the show
• It sounds like Whedon was ready to throw in the towel at one point, at least some parts of his post read like that