• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

What are the major arguments against ENT by its Naysayers?

It's called an open ended plan. You have room for flexibilty and change if needed. YOu dont have to map outr every detail from beginning to end.
No, but you should still have a fairly good idea of where you're going with a story. And you don't set the show 10 years before the founding of the Federation and not show it.

Be a TOS fan, I dont see "wandering" as a weakness.
I do, I see it as very limiting to the kind of storytelling that can be done. With multiple episode story arcs, much more complex stories can be told, especially if there's an ensemble cast. Otherwise, the show becomes formulatic and boring.
 
[I do, I see it as very limiting to the kind of storytelling that can be done. With multiple episode story arcs, much more complex stories can be told, especially if there's an ensemble cast. Otherwise, the show becomes formulatic and boring.

I agree that closed episodes are limiting: that's why I find TOS a bit boring (only 40 minutes and Kirk will always save the galaxy, no matter how serious the situation may be) even if I understand it was a format required by TV of sixties, and that's why I'm sometimes bored with TNG, especially first two seasons. On the other hand in ENT, even in two first seasons I've got a sense of continuity thanks to characters development and interactions and also links between episodes. I enjoyed most 3rd season because of Xindi arc, and I did like the idea of 3 episodes arcs in 4th season, but IMO they were rather poorly developed, with good premise and disappointing conclusion.
 
Most of my complaints about the show have been covered here, and I certainly wasn't shy about stating them when the show was on, but, given the chance:

1. Executive blindness - ENT was a sad victim of its creators trying to have it both ways, to "do something new" while simultaneously (or "actually") trying to evoke, invoke and outright plagiarize everything they felt was most recognizable from the series with which they had most recently been involved. ENT had a fatal case of "Not Invented Here" syndrome, in that they seemed to actively ignore or prevent any outside perspective or creativity in the creation of the series; the designers were the same, the writers were the same (and when they weren't, they clearly had no idea of what they were writing), and the Beebs themselves seemed constitutionally incapable of seeing the flaws in their own stories, and compulsive about making sure that no one else's story got through without them recasting it in their own flawed vision. The design of Akiraprise is just a symptom of all this - they approved a barely-changed version of a ship which had known fan appeal, rather than trying something new and maybe even a bit uncomfortable. The problem is that, in trying to make ENT 'comfortable' for the existing fans, it actually felt more like 'sloppy seconds.'

2. Amateurish writing - I'll go to the end stating that the first two seasons had generally good ideas, ruined by lousy execution, and that goes as far as the Beebs literally 'executing' any good idea they had, and leaving it to rot in the sun. The Xindi "arc" was no such thing, being instead a multi-part story with muddled and unclear chapters masquerading as episodes - an arc is nothing more and nothing less than a secondary premise - not a story in itself - in which other, stand-alone stories share both the overall premise of the series and the secondary premise of the arc, but can still frequently stand alone. The Xindi season was nothing of the sort, so in general, its episodes were usually incomplete. On top of that, they were poorly crafted, as well, not only in their stories but also in their visuals - somehow, ENT managed to slip far downhill from the standards that its predecessors had achieved, which only made good stories that much more vital, and that much more obvious in their absence.

The 4th season was, IMHO, ENT's (and Trek's) worst, for the same reasons. Here, the series truly became nothing more than "Behind the Scenes of Star Trek - (subtitle: Everything You 'Know' is Wrong! - Because We Said So!)." The story ideas were about on par with most fan fiction, concentrating primarily on telling stories about other stories, or 'fixing' the gaffes that the Beebs had needlessly committed in the previous seasons. Like the rest of the series, the plotlines were irregular, as were the characters, and what little science was even attempted was laughably and transparently wrong - generally, they tried to replace the necessary elements of storytelling with technobabble and justplain babble, which leads us to ...

3. Terrible characters AND terrible casting. Let me first say that ENT had two stand-outs: Connor Trinneer and John Billingsley. Somehow, they usually managed to make whatever drivel they were given sound like it meant something, both in general and to their characters specifically - they created and delivered characters far greater than their material, and they did it consistently. Kudos to them!

Bakula, OTOH, took a bad character and made him infinitely worse. The befuddled approach worked for Quantum Leap because Sam Beckett was befuddled! But Jonathan Archer was supposedly the best Earth had to offer - you;'d never know this from either Archer's petty, insipid approach to everything, nor from Bakula's perpetually furrowed brow and seeming inability to deliver a performance with any subtlety or believability.

Blalock was simply a wooden, whiny prop - just because she was supposed to be unemotional doesn't mean she had to be utterly devoid of any connection to her material.

The rest were also props, that the writers moved around to toss lines on in any given script, but never really expected to deliver, and so they didn't. And poor Anthony was made a complete joke; at least Checkov was a funny joke and not simply pathetic.
 
I never watched more than a handful of episodes, so take my comments for what they are.

It just never seemed very fresh or interesting to me - just more people rocking from side to side saying "shi...em.. Hull armour at 50%!".

In the few episodes I saw, none of the characters seemed particular interesting or engaging and the actors looked plain bored.
 
...
The 4th season was, IMHO, ENT's (and Trek's) worst, ....

A good example of how you cannot please everyone. I always find it interesting that while the majority consider season 4 to be the best of Enterprise and one of the best seasons of Star Trek, there are a few that consider it the worst. Trek purists seem to be the most frequently offended and I wonder if it is because season 4 and to some extent 3 dared to be different. While I agree that the executives/writers in season 1 and 2 made some big mistakes the writing is no worse than TOS and the recycled stories were no more frequent than in TNG.
 
To the Producers credit over the years, they didn't introduce everything TOS had either. They never got a Condition Green, Yellow or Red - it was either 'normal operation; or a 'tactical alert'; which brought the weapons and defense on-line; and Hull Plating was never auto-trigger by the computer or sensors either.

I liked the episode where they introduced tactical alert and Archer questioned whether it should be called "Reed alert" (Red alert - haha!)

ETA:

Blalock was simply a wooden, whiny prop - just because she was supposed to be unemotional doesn't mean she had to be utterly devoid of any connection to her material.

I actually thought her acting was quite nuanced and subtle.
 
Last edited:
I liked the episode where they introduced tactical alert and Archer questioned whether it should be called "Reed alert" (Red alert - haha!)
The episode was Singularity... one of the best of Season 2. Trip and Malcolm are having Hoshi's japanese soup for lunch and Trip errs when he responds to Reed's reference to -- I believe -- "condition red."
 
I liked the episode where they introduced tactical alert and Archer questioned whether it should be called "Reed alert" (Red alert - haha!)

Too bad "Red Alert" already exists in the real military in the present day, making the entire "let's invent an alert" subplot for that episode a tacit admission on the part of B&B that they had no clue what they were doing.
 
Since the ship is not military, and NASA does not have red alert, does it really matter?
 
"Wandering aimlessly" is how TOS did it.

TOS didn't wander aimlessly across the galaxy. There were hints that there was some sort of exploratory planning going on that we didn't get a full explanation on or even got to see.

In "What Little Girls Are Made Of," there is reference to a command packet that Kirk has in his cabin locker that outlines the destinations and course for the Enterprise. The ship also seemed to be operate out of Starbase 11, as seen in "Court Martial" and "The Menagerie." In TAS, there is reference to a star charting expedition "beyond the farthest star" in Kirk's log ("Beyond the Farthest Star"). A similar reference to star charting is made in "The Corbomite Maneuver."

Often, Kirk was given marching orders to certain destinations such as Babel ("Journey to Babel") or Alter IV ("Amok Time"). He was even given specific missions like in "Where No Man Has Gone Before." It also stated in the unaired version of that episode the details of the Enterprise's mission (star charting, space law regulation, etc.).

Even the TNG crew had hints of a greater exploratory mission profile. They were going beyond the Denab system to venture into "the great unexplored mass of the galaxy." In the second-season, the ship was said to be star charting or the only ship in some far flung sector. So it seemed that there was some planning going on that we didn't see. Also, Picard often got mission directives from Starfleet Command.

We, the audience, may come in when the crews are already in progress on a planet but that doesn't mean that there wasn't any set agenda. Contrast that with ENT and how Archer and crew operated. They seemed often to move through space at a whimsical pace in the first two seasons. Although, there were mentions of the Vulcan Star Charts. They seemed to just randomly pick places to go as seen in the last scene of "Broken Bow" and in the episode "Strange New World."
 
I agree with what a lot of people said already, but my personal issues with ENT are as follows:

1. Boring. I remember trying to get into the show, but it really did a terrible job of hooking viewers in, esp. in the tease right before each show. The first two seasons were pretty boring, with lackluster stories that felt a lot like been there, done that, esp. compared to shows like Alias, BSG, 24, and even SG-A in it's first season, which was much better than ENT's first.

2. Poorly written characters. I don't think the writers had any real ideas of where they wanted to take these characters. Eventually Trip shone through, and T'Pol, Phlox, and Archer got some direction, but it felt too erratic. Poor Reed, Hoshi, and Mayweather really had their character development beholden to whatever the plot was or needed, giving Hoshi karate powers in S4, making Reed a member of S31 in S4 were two examples. For the most part these characters were pretty boring. I think the writers should've tried to make them different, stand apart from other Trek crews better. Whatever life was breathed into them, I credit the actors.

3. TWC. I didn't mind this so much if TPTB actually had thought it out. I think it was really lazy not to even have an idea who Future Guy was if he was to be so integral to the story. TWC came across as an empty mythic arc that collapsed under its own weight, like the X-Files alien arc, but even that arc got some resolution. The arcs they needed to do were the Romulan War and the beginning of the Federation, which they half-heartedly started toward the end.

4. Klingons. This show didn't need Klingons. For one, it pissed off a lot of people on continuity grounds which created a debate about that, but more importantly ENT didn't do anything different with the Klingons than what we had seen before. I think the Andorians could've fit the bill as generic warrior race, and at least they would've kept my attention since we had seen so little of them.

5. Vulcans. I didn't like how the Vulcans were made so shady. It just didn't seem right to me but DS9 seemed to start the Vulcan bashing with "Take me Out to the Holosuite," and ENT continued it. I think the show would've worked better if sometimes-just sometimes the Vulcans had been right and the humans wrong.

6. Archer. Worst captain ever. Even though he got better in S3, I thought he was horrible in the first two seasons. With Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway I each saw why they were captains. They had commanding presences. But Archer? He was too namby pamby.

7. Playing it safe. Going back to #1. I think ENT tried to play it too safe, when the time period, both in Trek, and on TV, gave them so license to do things differently, to try to make Trek a bit more relevant, fun, and something to talk about around the watercooler.
 
I have heard just about every gripe there is, and the one I still find full of the most bullshit is "canon violations." FANON violations maybe but there were no blatant contradictions (Berman and Braga had been working on Trek for nigh 2 decades!)

What about when the Romulans decloak in the mine field? Why would Spock be so surprised in 2266? That seems pretty blatant. Or Vorok's Kronos One reuse battlecruiser? I know that was just a vfx error, but i almost died laughing when I saw that episode. Just mistakes.
 
Last edited:
"Wandering aimlessly" is how TOS did it.

TOS didn't wander aimlessly across the galaxy. There were hints that there was some sort of exploratory planning going on that we didn't get a full explanation on or even got to see.

...

Wandering aimlessly may not be the best term but in TOS they do keep making contact with new beings and races, reach the edge of the galaxy, and "go where no man has gone before".

I've been re-watching TOS on DVD and it is surprising how many TOS episodes have been remade into TNG episodes and movies. Just as shocking is how many canon violations TOS season 2 already has with TOS season 1. Then there is the stupid moves. Archer did some stupid things in Enterprise that would make me mad but watching "Who Mourns for Adonais" and "The Changling" last night I realized that stupid moves is part of Star Trek lore. With Scotty trying to fight a god and McCoy chewing out a device that just wiped out a civilization I kept thinking "no one is really that stupid." Now the writing for Archer does not seem so bad.
 
It's still bad, but all the series have bad episodes and characters making tard moves. Even Sisko poisoned an entire planet in order to capture Eddington. But whereas DS9 had some really awesome episodes to make up for crap like that, ENT really didn't. But just saying that someone else sucked at it before you doesn't excuse anyone from sucking later on.
 
It's still bad, but all the series have bad episodes and characters making tard moves. Even Sisko poisoned an entire planet in order to capture Eddington. But whereas DS9 had some really awesome episodes to make up for crap like that, ENT really didn't. But just saying that someone else sucked at it before you doesn't excuse anyone from sucking later on.

However, Star Trek is kind of a "universe" and comparing different parts of it is legitimate (especially if, on the other hand, one of major offences of ENT is "canon violation). I'm first to admit, ENT has some a number of weaknesses, but I don't get the violent criticism: it really doesn't seem worse than TOS or other parts of ST and it does have some "awesome" episodes. Bad acting? Shall we discuss TOS acting, which aged very badly indeed? Bad writing? Do we need to quote some "brilliant" TOS or TNG dialogues? And of course Archer "worst captain ever": would it be better to have a clone of playboy Kirk or repressed Picard? (I do consider Picard a good captain, but when he tries to be a "character" he becomes terribly annoying)
 
"Wandering aimlessly" is how TOS did it.

TOS didn't wander aimlessly across the galaxy. There were hints that there was some sort of exploratory planning going on that we didn't get a full explanation on or even got to see.

...

Wandering aimlessly may not be the best term but in TOS they do keep making contact with new beings and races, reach the edge of the galaxy, and "go where no man has gone before".

Which is still possible with long-term and short-term planning. Merely, it seemed in TOS and in TNG that there was a set section of unknown territory that both crews were exploring much in the same way the old sailing ships did. Having a direction and knowing where you are going doesn't preclude running into new things and making contact with new beings and races. And, of course, that was part of the Enterprise's mission directive-- to seek out new life and civilizations, explore strange, new worlds and go where no man has gone before.

The episodes I pointed out in my previous post did list those instances when the Enterprise had a mission profile, i.e. star charting, and still ran into something interesting and new (Balok and the First Federation, the imprisoned creature in "Beyond the Farthest Star," the Melkotians in "Spectre of the Gun," etc.).

From the little hints that I pointed out, it can be inferred that Starfleet Command didn't just send the Enterprise out and tell Kirk to go speed around the galaxy at random and hopefully you run into some crazy shit. Whereas in ENT, especially in the first two seasons, is exactly what Archer did.
 
However, Star Trek is kind of a "universe" and comparing different parts of it is legitimate (especially if, on the other hand, one of major offences of ENT is "canon violation). I'm first to admit, ENT has some a number of weaknesses, but I don't get the violent criticism: it really doesn't seem worse than TOS or other parts of ST and it does have some "awesome" episodes.

And I'm guessing that you'll never get it then, because the problem with ENT was that it never really had that many outstanding episodes, if any, for that matter. It had some decent ones, but none of them were all that great, and most of them sucked, like say the majority of season 2. So if you actually liked episodes like A Night in Sickbay and The Seventh, you're not ever going to understand what others don't like about the show.

And of course Archer "worst captain ever": would it be better to have a clone of playboy Kirk or repressed Picard? (I do consider Picard a good captain, but when he tries to be a "character" he becomes terribly annoying)
The problem with Archer is that they tried to make him a Kirk clone (and I'm not that impressed with Kirk either to be honest), or rather the stereotypical aspects of Kirk they thought were cool, because they admitted to doing little research before jumping into this project.
 
And I'm guessing that you'll never get it then, because the problem with ENT was that it never really had that many outstanding episodes, if any, for that matter. It had some decent ones, but none of them were all that great, and most of them sucked, like say the majority of season 2. So if you actually liked episodes like A Night in Sickbay and The Seventh, you're not ever going to understand what others don't like about the show.

That's surely a bit rude statement, don't you think? If in your opinion ENT sucked, it's fine with me, but it is still only your opinion and not a fact. The fact is that ENT only made less than 100 episodes, so statistically they had less possibilities of making a number of outstanding ones: I really don't recally ANY outstanding episode from the season 1 and 2 of TNG (ok, may be one) :devil: And, of course, I could say that if you don't like episodes like "Cogenitor" or "Dead Stop" you are not ever going to understand what others like about the show, but I don't think this kind of statements has any sense. :cool:
 
I actually do see some positive aspects to those episodes, so that statement would actually have some truth to it in my case. ;) And TNG isn't made of awesome either, it's aged as badly as ENT has for me. DS9, on the other hand, while it has some real stinkers, is mostly good, including its first couple of seasons IMO.

As to what I said, I think it's pretty true - if you don't think something sucks, you're not going to understand why someone else thinks it does, or at least very rare is the person who does.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top