B5: Londos' 3 chances for redemtion *SPOILERS*

[hxclespaulplayer]

There has been some debate over interpreting Londos' 3 chances of redemption.

"You must save the eye that does not see": The eye in "Signs and Portents"? G'Kars' eye? The eye thingy on Z'ha'dum? I'm going with G'Kars' on this one.

"You must not kill the one who is already dead": Sheridan? Morden? Methinks Morden, Sheridan wasn't dead in 2277, unless I'm meant to think outside of the box on this one... plus, Londo let Sheridan escape, and only had him think his death was imminent to please his Keeper, anyway...

"You must surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy you. Now if you have failed all the others, that is your final chance for redemption."

that's gotta be either his fear of dying - whether it's straight-out dying, by G'Kars' hands, or fear that his visions of his death would come true... OR losing self-control, by way of being implanted with a keeper. He did, at one point, say that he once had all the choices in the world, but no power - then when becoming emporer, had all the power in the world, but no choices.

What do you think? I'd make this a pull, but don't know how to do multis. Please feel free to heartily disagree with my interpretations!

How I was introduced to B5? It must have been the late 90s', I saw one of the most spoilerific moments of the series purely by chance (Sheridan telling the Shadows and the Vorlons to shove it). I knew that this was a Big Thing, and wanted to see more eps, but somehow didn't get around to it. Didn't even know the name of the show at this point! Earlier this millenium I saw "messages from earth" to "war without end 2", saw that it was quality viewing, but just didn't "get" what was going on, in hindsight, this was obvious, but it didn't really spoil me.

Fast-forward to last year. I'd heard some hype about the series, went over to the lurkers' guide, and found that a string of eps dealt with Garibaldis' drinking problem. "What??? This kinda stuff isn't dealt with in sci-fi!" Then imagine my shock that dead characters stayed dead! I watched every arc ep/ep in bold on the lurkers guide - I think I actually started with the start of S4, then went back to the obvious "WHAM" eps of s1 and 2, and was pretty hooked by season 3. The score for S1, IMHO, was pretty cheesy, but the rest, brilliant. The CGI that people seem to complain about - never really bothered me because the writing was consistent QUALITY. I remember reading that JMS had written virtually every ep of S2-4. Even heard somewhere that someone remarked that you could see the toll it took on him physically, comparing him from a S3 convention to a S4 one, since S4 was flat-out "WHAM" - the fact that one man wrote this epic virtually single-handed just goes to show that JMS is a genius. I don't even have anything negative to say about S5 (apart from it was less arc-based, but most loose ends were tied up previous, anyway)!

Didn't really care for the movies, apart, of course, the pilot and In The Beginning. The Lost Tales was a bit 50/50, I didn't like "over here", but "over there" was a lot better, if only to see Sheridan again.

Sorry to ramble on, I just thought this thread was as good a place as any other to share my B5 experience. Please do ask for my opinion on different episodes if you feel inclined.

 

[Harvey]

I'm pretty sure the greatest fear refers to the Keeper, which Londo ultimately surrenders himself to, thus finding his redemption at last.

My script books are at home. Does JMS bother explaining this point in them (calling Jan)?

 

[Lindley]

The Eye is not the one from "Signs and Portents". How could it be? That entire thing is behind him, and Lady Morella was referring to future chances. It's G'Kar's eye. Has to be; when Londo asks him about it, G'Kar says regarding his empty socket, "It sees."

The one who is already dead.....probably Morden. I used to think Sheridan, but....Londo never killed him, so there would be no need to use the final chance if he were the one.

His greatest fear is ambiguous, but I'd say probably his death at G'Kar's hands. It is referred to as a final chance, after all.

 

[Nedersong]

But here's the secret to Londo's dreams....


Spoilers....


5


4


3


2


1


It turns out that Londo turns to G'kar and asks him to kill himself in order to escape the Keeper. Whe G'kar is doing so, the Keeper awakens and takes control of Londo and forces him to strangle G'Kar.

 

[Augustus]

i never thought of Morden as the man who is already dead. But if he hadn't of killed Morden, would that have made a difference? He had already blown up all the shadows on that one island... making his world and him a future target...

 

[MarianLH]

I'm not sure about the other two, but the eye definitely referred to G'Kar. From an internet post after that episode:

Why didn't Londo try to save G'Kar's eye?
Yeah...would've been nice if Londo had at least tried to do something about the eye that did not see Cartagia's splendor....
Source.

Edited to add: I always assumed the man who is already dead was Morden. Not killing Morden would have somehow prevented the Drakh from coming to Centauri Prime. I don't see how sparing Sheridan helps him avoid his fate. He doesn't avoid his fate. So I'm still thinking it's Morden.


Marian

 

[hxclespaulplayer]

What I'd like to know - Morden sided with Earth (voices of authority), the vorlons were going around destroying planets touched by the Shadows, there was not one big dialogue to the tune of "ZOMG earth might be next!"

 

[David cgc]

In the Centuari Prime novels, when Londo reaches the end of his life, he discusses his three chances with G'Kar and what he believes them to mean.

Spoiler: Book III of the Centuari Prime trilogy

"Save the eye that does not see" is actually "Save the I that does not see." In other words, to save himself, he must recognize that he's done awful things as is, in fact, in need of redemption.

"Don't kill the one who is already dead" refers to Sheridan, who died on Z'ha'dum (and then died again on Babylon 5 when they took out the Vorlon). At this point, Sheridan and Delenn were just released by Londo from one of his dungeons, so they could escape with their son before the Drakh realized that Londo was undoing all their plans.

"Surrender yourself to your greatest fear" is the dream of his death at the hands of G'Kar. He then does this by weakly goading G'Kar into killing him until G'Kar realizes what he needs to do.

What I'm really curious about are the two other chances for redemption Londo had already lost by Season 3.

 

[Forbin]

T
The one who is already dead.....probably Morden. I used to think Sheridan, but....Londo never killed him, so there would be no need to use the final chance if he were the one.

There was no requisite that he save someone he already killed.

Sheridan had died at Zaha'Dum, and londo saved him from death in WwoE, thus not killing "the one who is already dead." Sheridan is certainly the one referred to.

The prophecy does fit slightly for Morden - him having been presumed dead. But I think it fits much better for Sheridan.

 

[Sean_McCormick]

Well, i used to believe, that 2 and three meant saving Sheridan from the dungeon and therefore from the death sentence and letting himself be killed by G'Kar. But since saving Sheridan gains nothing without preventing the keeper from raising alarm and i believe, that the 3 chances are seperate from each another, i think, both acts together form the 3rd and last chance (If you believe, the 3rd is referring to giving himself uo to the keeper, then the 2nd can'T mean Seridan, since they must appear in order).

The 2nd is in my mind either Morden or Refa. Can't see a historic significance in Morden's survival and Refa's survival surely does not create a better timeline than his death, although it might be possible, that in that timeline Refa would have acted similar to Londo (killing Cartagia and becoming emperor) and thus takes the harsh fate, that Londo got.

Regarding the two missed chances, i think those the shadow attacks in "The Coming of Shadows" and "The Long, Twilight Struggle". In "Crysalis" he learns, how powerful and ruthless Morden's "associates" are and is horrified at the rusults. Yet in both later instances, he let himself talked into agreeing with the shadow attack - his concious decision is crucial in both events, and he makes them knowing what he unleashes on the Narn and this condems him.

 

[Augustus]

The fall of centauri prime novels are pretty much canon right? if so, I would assume Londo in the novel knows what he is talking about...

 

[Sean_McCormick]

Another thought (sorry for the double post, but enough time has passed, that i don't think it appropiate to edit my post above):

If saving Sheridan is the 2nd chance, why would he also need to use the 3rd one, which according to the prophecy would only come to pass, when he FAILED to take the 1st and the 2nd one?

 

[MarianLH]

The fall of centauri prime novels are pretty much canon right? if so, I would assume Londo in the novel knows what he is talking about...

On the other hand, you have JMS flat-out saying the eye refers to G'Kar. How do you reconcile that?

And again, how can "the man who is already dead" be Sheridan, when Londo does spare him and it gains him nothing?


Marian

 

[David cgc]

The fall of centauri prime novels are pretty much canon right? if so, I would assume Londo in the novel knows what he is talking about...

On the other hand, you have JMS flat-out saying the eye refers to G'Kar. How do you reconcile that?

JMS also originally suggested that it was "I" and not "eye." And he later said, (when called on the fact that he said on-line that Valen had no children, but a later episode proved that wrong) that story takes precedence over behind-the-scenes statements and he reserves the right to make false or misleading statements in order to preserve dramatic surprises.

 

[Mistral]

"It's my party and I'll lie if I want to, lie if I want to, Lie if I want to..."

 

[Brian]

Lady Morella's prophecy, for reference:

"You still have three opportunities to avoid the fire at the end of your journey. You have already wasted two others. You must save the (eye) that does not see; you must not kill the one who is already dead; and at the last, you must surrender to yourself to your greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy you. Now if you have failed all the others, that is your final chance at redemption."

Now on to a few points I'd like to address...

And again, how can "the man who is already dead" be Sheridan, when Londo does spare him and it gains him nothing?

I don't see how sparing Sheridan helps him avoid his fate. He doesn't avoid his fate.

Accomplishing the acts does not "gain" Londo anything tangible (they gain redemption, freedom from "the fire" at the end of his journey), so questions of what did this or that gain him are moot. It gained him nothing we can see.

If saving Sheridan is the 2nd chance, why would he also need to use the 3rd one, which according to the prophecy would only come to pass, when he FAILED to take the 1st and the 2nd one?

It also does not say that he has to fail the first two for the third to present itself, just that if he fails the first two, the third is his last chance.

Based on that, I think the three are G'Kar's eye, Sheridan, and submitting his life to G'Kar's tender mercies.

 

[Jan]

JMS never explained this prophecy in the script books.

And again, how can "the man who is already dead" be Sheridan, when Londo does spare him and it gains him nothing?

What I think sometimes gets missed is that what Lady Morella gives Londo are hints that can help him find his redemption, "to avoid the fire that waits for you at the end of your journey", not necessarily to find a happy ending. The way I see it, Londo takes two of the three opportunities that he had: He didn't kill the one who was already dead (only Sheridan had actually died) and he did surrender to his greatest fear.

For me, the interesting question was, what was his greatest fear? The easy answer would be that he did meet his fate with G'Kar but that doesn't quite to it for me since Londo never seemed all that afraid of his fate. The one thing that Londo did which actually required surrender was his allowing the Keeper to be placed on him. Londo was a patriot through and through and knowing that he'd have to work against the best interests of his world and his people had to have been his greatest nightmare.

One other fear that Londo had that I briefly considered was his seeming terror of facing G'Kar and sincerely apologizing for all that he'd done. "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari" makes a good case that Londo would almost rather have died than to face up to what he'd done to G'Kar's people. I've never completely let go of this theory but I think the surrender to the Keeper fits better.

Jan

 

[Rÿcher]

Spoilers?

Here's a spoiler for you:

Spoiler: 25 years old but still...

Darth Vader is Luke's father!

Do we really need spoilers for stuff that's been out for 10+ years?

 

[MarianLH]

Okay, I've been pursuaded.


Marian

 

[Lindley]

Do we really need spoilers for stuff that's been out for 10+ years?

I think we've got a few people around the forum going through B5 for the first time, so it's not a bad idea. Certainly isn't hurting anyone....