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So, I liked Before Dishonor...

Shouldn't Margaret Clark or Marco have taken his dislike of Voyager and Janeway into account when approaching him for this project?

No, because they know better than to assume a professional writer would be unable to overcome such attitudes for the sake of the story. We try not to be that petty. Heck, most of my first novel (Ex Machina) was a sequel to an episode I don't care for that much. And I've heard some writers say they like the challenge of taking on characters they aren't personally fond of and finding ways to do something worthwhile with them, maybe deepen their understanding of those characters.

Heck, personally I'm not that fond of the Borg, but that didn't mean I was willing to approach them unprofessionally when I was asked to do the followup to Before Dishonor. This is the difference between writing as a hobby and writing as a career, a difference that laypeople seem to have an enormous difficulty recognizing. People who write as a hobby have the luxury to do only what they feel like or what suits their personal interests and agendas, because it doesn't matter whether what they do is any good, only that they have fun doing it. For professional writers, we often have to put our own preferences aside and do what serves the story. Professionals do the jobs they're hired to do. They don't just do what they feel like.
 
I guess you're right (I mean, I don't really have anything to refute it).

I'm still questioning the reason why PAD was selected to do this in the first place. His writing style, characterizations and, really, all or most of his entries into Trek Lit are extremely different from the other authors, and, in this case, not necessarily the type of thing you'd want, especially dealing with such situations like killing off Janeway, as one example.
 
I have problems with the mutiny part of the book and I also don`t think it was a good idea to kill Janeway. But if you really want to kill her, I don`t think the way PAD wrote her was an inaccurate characterization. Janeway IS a controversial character. The way she was written in Voyager on TV is very inconsistent, too. PAD certainly didn`t show her at her best but he didn`t make things up. I can understand that people who like Janeway are not fond of the approach of emphasizing the stubborn and arrogant part of per personality but at least she died heroic. I certainly think so.

Also, the pattern of Admirals making life difficult for Picard is nothing new and PAD continued what had been established before. As I keep saying, I am really fed up with it and want this to stop! I don`t want to read any more variations of it!

PAD is much more than just a “comic book” writer. He has his unique style but I think that gives some of his darker stories or story elements even more impact. “Once Burned” is the best drama I have ever read and this book is definitely very dark in places.

I think if the mutineers really had a good reason to mutiny (and, no, the excuse that orders are orders is not good enough) so that also Janeway had a better reason for her attitude towards Picard, it would have helped the book tremendously.

But I disagree with it that PAD and his writing style are not suitable for writing situations like the killing of a main character.
 
But I disagree with it that PAD and his writing style are not suitable for writing situations like the killing of a main character.

That's not necessarily what I meant, to a point. However, even in Once Burned, there are still comedic aspects to it that, looking back on it now, after having read it a few times, sort of lessen the dramatic impact. And most of his stories, to me, aren't very serious at times. Sometimes, as with most New Frontier novels, it works. However that unique writing style is what caused Before Dishonor to just fail on so many fronts for me. I mean, one minute Nechayev and Jellico are preparing for what looks to be their last stand, and Earth's as well. A serious moment, one that could have been great...and then a few seconds later, the two of them are betting on the survival of the human race and Earth?! Or, the Enterprise is on the way to stop the Borg Uber Cube of Certain Death with the Planet Killer Two of Two...and Calhoun just happens to appear and have rounded up a small fleet of about 15 starships, makes Picard a temporary Commodore, and decides to place himself and the Excalibur under Picard's overall command. 15 starships are willing to defy orders and serve under Picard, but his own crew doesn't trust him. His unique writing style for me, when it works, can make his darker stories have greater impact. But, just the like matter-antimatter intermix ratio, it has to be just right or everything fails. In Once Burned, despite what I said earlier, it does work.
 
I still don`t think his style is at fault here but I agree, it is a flawed book. It is certainly one of the most frustrating books I have read because there is a lot in it I really enjoy but it has serious flaws.

It doesn`t help that a lot of it has to do with differences of opinion. PAD has said that he doesn`t think the three main mutineers were out of character. I couldn`t disagree more.

Interesting, I must admit I overlooked the good point you made, that 15 starships were following Picard. After Jellico`s turnaround concerning his attitude towards Calhoun, I definitely noticed that also Starfleet`s attitude towards Calhoun must have changed enormously since early NF. But that Starfleet captains trust Calhoun so much that it overrides the actions and judgements of the Admirals against Picard, I find that hard to believe.
 
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I still don`t think his style is at fault here but I agree, it is a flawed book. It is certainly one of the most frustrating books I have read because there is a lot in it I really enjoy but it has serious flaws.

I'm trying to remember if there was anything about it I enjoyed. I'll have to double-check.

It doesn`t help that a lot of it has to do with differences of opinion. PAD has said that he doesn`t think the three main mutineers were out of character. I couldn`t disagree more.

And I agree with you. Leybenzon went from being a tough but fairly decent Security Chief to a psychotic bastard who sullies the uniform he wears with his actions and is willing to torture fellow shipmates to accomplish a goal.

Kadohata went from an okay Ops Manager, unsure of her new position, handpicked by Data, and, from her backstory, a definite "D-guy", to a person who flip-flops in loyalty and goals and only had her mind changed about the mutiny when it was clear that Picard and the other ("real" can also be used after other) D-guys + Spock had planned ahead.

T'Lana went from a bitchy, Enterprise-era mentality Vulcan to...a bitchy, Enterprise-era mentality Vulcan x20.

Interesting, I must admit I overlooked the good point you made, that 15 starships were following Picard. After Jellico`s turnaround concerning his attitude towards Calhoun, I definitely noticed that also Starfleet`s attitude towards Calhoun must have changed enormously since early NF. But that Starfleet captains trust Calhoun so much that it overrides the actions and judgements of the Admirals against Picard, I find that hard to believe.

I also assumed that those 15 ships had also been given orders to head straight the hell back to Earth to help in the defense, especially after the "Slaughter of Sector 108" (which doesn't sound very close to Sector 001, but hey, transwarp or something). So that makes the Calhoun Task Force (or, almost in a more literal sense for Earth, Battle Group Omega) even more questionable in my mind.

Another thing that's been bugging me is Spock's whole involvement. I mean, yay, he's helping Picard and whatnot, but seriously? It's like PAD was trying to hard to come up with things to add to the story to impress the readers.
 
When Marco Palmieri used to hang around here, he said he liked ST novels to polarize readers' opinions.

True enough, but there are different ways books can split the readership, and not all of them are good. I'm on record, for instance, as disagreeing with the direction taken with the Founders in Olympus Descending... but at the same time, that disagreement prompted relatively involved discussions of theology, sociology, psychology: the kind of debate Marco would like books under his stewardship to provoke (well, I think, not knowing the man personally). I would compare it to "In the Pale Moonlight", as a well-executed piece that divides on the basis of its content. By contrast, the arguments over Before Dishonor has largely been confined to its quality or lack thereof. There could be loftier arguments (for instance, what the ending implies about the metaphysics of the Trekverse) but they're largely lost beneath the craptacularness of the rest of the book. So comparing the divisiveness of Olympus Descending with Before Dishonor is like comparing the fan reaction to "In the Pale Moonlight" as opposed to, say, "Endgame". It should be about content, not quality.

And Before Dishonor opens with Janeway heading out to face the Borg for the first time in two years, an enemy threat she'd thought she had neutralized at that time, and which she stubbornly refused to believe existed throughout most of Resistance. Should she have been playing Irish milkmaid on the holodeck instead?

It's not a stroll through the park, to be sure, but she wasn't actually heading out to face a threat since the cube was supposed to be dead; series of experts had examined the thing and pronounced it such, and Janeway merely wanted to see it for herself (and had the ill fortune of being the one present when the cube awoke with its new properties). She was obviously keen on taking precautions--and they were good precautions, failing only because it couldn't have anticipated the next stage in Borg (d)evolution--but that, if anything, is just the prudence many believe Janeway not to have in the first place. It's like archaeology in the Middle East: sure, you're not thrilled on the guards with the machine guns, but you're not in a state of constant anxiety either, since you don't expect the dead to attack you. Basically, Janeway's been in far worse situations than wandering a dead Borg cube (like boarding live ones!) without flipping into her more hardcore persona. And between the bitterness and Resistance, my impression wasn't of a passing, darkling mood, but a more long-term mental condition, like an ongoing depression. And while on the subject of Resistance, I thought she was out of character there too. Being incautious may be in character for Janeway, but being incurious--particularly about the Borg--is not.

I'm still questioning the reason why PAD was selected to do this in the first place.

Because he was a big-name, best-selling author, and Before Dishonor was to be a major event in the post-NEM sequence. I was thrilled when Excessum Rector (the book's working title) was first announced, because it was PAD, an author I had enjoyed, returning to TNG, a series in which he'd penned some of my favourite books like Q-Squared, and tackling a major Borg threat, as he had in the still-great Vendetta. I assure you, from the time the author and subject matter was announced, I never anticipated such a tragic misfire. I don't think it could have been predicted, although I certainly wish someone at some point in the editorial process had vetted the product that was developing a little more closely.

PAD has said that he doesn`t think the three main mutineers were out of character. I couldn`t disagree more.

I thought T'Lana was in character: here's a woman who asked to be assigned to one of the best-performing starships in the fleet because she thinks Picard and his crew desperately need her moderating judgment. From such an extreme belief in one's own infallibility, it isn't far to decide to skip the middlemen (advising others as to the correct course of action) and just take control yourself.

Kadohata and Leybenzon, we didn't actually have much in characterization established for them. It's a testament to how radically different the characters were from one book to the next that so many people feel they were out of character from having only read one book with them in it.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
I have just watched the finale of the latest Doctor Who season. The Daleks remind me in many ways of the Borg and this story could be seen as a huge crossover, too. The question of how do they get defeated this time was important but first of all, this story was about the characters.

It was a powerful, moving story. It wasn`t a happy end but didn`t leave the viewer depressed either. It was a bittersweet ending, something I prefer for this kind of story.

You know, I'd been trying very, very hard to avoid any and all spoilers for the Doctor Who series four finale. It hasn't aired in America yet, and I haven't been able to download any of the episodes. So I haven't, for instance, been frequenting the DW forum much.

And now you tell me, without any spoiler warning, that there are

Daleks

in the finale.

Goddamnit.
 
^ Avoid the Destiny trilogy thread, then, there's an even more extensive spoiler in there.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
the thing about Calhoun's group, i think is that they were heading to Earth, possibly all defying orders to do so, and Calhoun merely acted as 'spokesman' for the group or (per VGR's Equinox) had the most advanced ship (or whatever the BS was that gave Janeway the right to boss Ransom around) and so had the group command until Calhoun put Picard in command as the senior Captain and with the most badass ship (unless one was a Defiant...)
 
the thing about Calhoun's group, i think is that they were heading to Earth, possibly all defying orders to do so, and Calhoun merely acted as 'spokesman' for the group or (per VGR's Equinox) had the most advanced ship (or whatever the BS was that gave Janeway the right to boss Ransom around) and so had the group command until Calhoun put Picard in command as the senior Captain and with the most badass ship (unless one was a Defiant...)

Possibly, but it still causes one to be incredulous. I mean, considering Earth was being threatened by the Borg and that Jellico and Nechayev had ordered all ships, especially the Enterprise back to Earth to help defend it...and yet Calhoun manages to get 15 starships willing to travel however far to get to Picard, get placed under his command, and then travel to Earth, still under his command, and helping escort the Planet Killer, all the while Picard is dealing with a mutiny among his senior staff, two members of whom really should have been beyond any redemption in Picard's eyes. The disparity in the situations is stark and hard to believe.
 
Calhoun was coming from the far-away sector where New Frontier is set; his fleet encountered Picard on their way back to Earth. They didn't fly out to meet him on purpose.
 
I have just watched the finale of the latest Doctor Who season. The Daleks remind me in many ways of the Borg and this story could be seen as a huge crossover, too. The question of how do they get defeated this time was important but first of all, this story was about the characters.

It was a powerful, moving story. It wasn`t a happy end but didn`t leave the viewer depressed either. It was a bittersweet ending, something I prefer for this kind of story.

You know, I'd been trying very, very hard to avoid any and all spoilers for the Doctor Who series four finale. It hasn't aired in America yet, and I haven't been able to download any of the episodes. So I haven't, for instance, been frequenting the DW forum much.

And now you tell me, without any spoiler warning, that there are

Daleks

in the finale.

Goddamnit.


That XXX is/are in the Doctor Who finale has been openly discussed for ages on this board! Sorry, I really didn`t consider that fact a spoiler at all.

I can assure you, there is no reason for swearing. There is lots of stuff going on that will surprise you.
 
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