So, I liked Before Dishonor...

[Darth_Pazuzu]

Funny thing about Before Dishonor:

I used to fantasize in my mind about what would happen if the Borg ever assimilated the Founders (before the fourth volume of Mission Gamma seemingly put that notion to rest). I thought it would create a whole new breed of liquid-metal Borg - a whole race of T-1000's, if you will! And it also occurred to me that they would probably be able to assimilate by way of direct absorption, as opposed to direct injection via tubules.

Well, I found the whole idea of that last notion actually coming true - the Borg developing the ability to assimilate by way of direct absorption - truly scary indeed. And they didn't even have to assimilate Changelings in order to do it! Who knows whether or not they'd have the ability to pull that little trick off now?! If I were a Founder, I'd watch my freakin' back these days...

 

[Dancing Doctor]

The Borg should've stopped playing around, just destroyed Earth, and simply got it all over with.

The end.

It would have denied us the chance to find out that the psychotic Borg in Before Dishonor and Resistance were Not Your TNG Season 2 Borg. It showed us that they were Definitely The Novel's Villain, and that They Meant Business. No more of this pussyfooting Borg, doing things piecemeal. Nope. Send the Mother-Of-All Borg Cubes to Earth (pausing for a quick *urp* snack in Sector 108) straight to Earth and Sector 001. Oh, and give it the ability to create mini-Cubes. Also, it ties into them no longer doing things to adapt. I mean, if literally tearing apart a security team doesn't show that, then the absorption of Pluto for no real reason beyond gaining mass and size (if not also Because They Could and Because It Was Teh Terafieeng!!11!!) certainly underlines it.

And despite all that, they still got the mandatory smackdown in the end. They just can't win...

You'd think they'd learn by now to stop trying to assimilate Earth and certain Starfleet captains...it never ends well for them.

Revenge is a murky place, and for an entity like the Borg it's probably a bit overwhelming.

i thought it created Borgified versions of the starships it absorbed not mini-cubes...

They only did that, AFAICR, with the Einstein, because they wanted to put up a ruse for a short time, so that no one would suspect anything was amiss until it was too late.

 

[Therin of Andor]

And they didn't even have to assimilate Changelings in order to do it! Who knows whether or not they'd have the ability to pull that little trick off now?! If I were a Founder, I'd watch my freakin' back these days...

Maybe it's their... "Destiny"?

 

[Thrawn]

It's really amusing, reading all the reviews of this book all around the internet. Everyone seems to think it's terrible, or at least deeply flawed, but no one seems to agree on how.

I mean, I've seen reviews that say the characterization is off for everyone except Worf, whereas I personally thought he was the only one of the regulars that wasn't quite right. I've seen reviews that praise David's ability to keep the Borg interesting, and reviews that excoriate the novel for being the same boring Borg stuff we've seen before. I've seen reviews angry that Seven and Janeway have such a strong presence in a TNG book, and reviews thrilled that the relationship between the two was so strong. I see lots of complaining here about the absurdity of the cube devouring Pluto, but on PAD's site, even people that hated the book tended to see that as a surprisingly ominous moment.

And many, many, many people have huge problems with the whole mutiny storyline, but I didn't at all. In Resistance, Picard disobeyed orders, got assimilated, got several crew killed, and the ultimate solution didn't have anything to do with him. After that, after direct orders from admiralty, and with their homeworld at stake, I'd completely believe that younger officers would go with protectiveness and starfleet loyalty over Picard. And I can't imagine you'd say he acted immaturely either - he never once treated anyone unfairly at all, and simply took command once it was all over. It actually seemed perfectly in character to me.

As far as I can tell, the only complaint everyone shares is that this version of Kadohata and Leybenzon isn't KRAD's, and that's certainly true. There are even hints at romantic chemistry between them, despite the fact that she has a family and the two didn't do much together in the previous novel. David says he wasn't sent a copy of Q&A at all, so maybe this is an editorial problem, I really have no idea how it all works, but either way it diminishes the coherence pretty strongly. Neither of their backstories is mentioned at all, nor were any events from the previous novel. Given how good the DS9 relaunch was at weaving these things together, it makes me think this was a legitimate editorial choice, to try and keep the TNG books more standalone. Either way, it failed. I have faith in Christopher to put all this together into believable characters, though, and I'm really looking forward to how it all resolves.

But really, aside from that, it seems like everything someone hates, someone else loves, making this book amusingly controversial but hardly a disaster. If nothing else, none of the previous TNG-R books made me all that interested in seeing the next installment, but after this I'm quite curious how the crew will mend itself, the fate of T'Lana, etc.

 

[Therin of Andor]

it seems like everything someone hates, someone else loves, making this book amusingly controversial but hardly a disaster.

When Marco Palmieri used to hang around here, he said he liked ST novels to polarize readers' opinions.

If a novel attempts to be everything to everyone, it's not going to be anybody's favourite. PAD's "Beyond Dishonor" probably did try to do too many things. It went for iconic PAD humor, a sequel to "Vendetta", evolved Borg, atypical Starfleet officers, killing off someone we know PAD disliked, etc.

 

[Trent Roman]

^ PAD disliked Janeway? That certainly explains why her portrayal was so extremely tilted towards her darker moments.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[JD]

Yeah, I believe he's made some comments in past about not liking Voyager.

 

[Trent Roman]

^ Those I've heard; but disliking a series is different from disliking a specific character. After all, for all he may have disliked VOY, Seven--one of its most besmeared characters--got a sizeable role and fair characterization. If PAD is a Janeway hater specifically, it would explain the discrepency between the reasonable protrayal of Seven and the extreme portrayal of Janeway.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Thrawn]

What are you all talking about, 'extreme' portrayal of Janeway? She's only in the book for like 40 pages before she gets assimilated, during which she can at WORST be described as overly inquisitive.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

What are you all talking about, 'extreme' portrayal of Janeway? She's only in the book for like 40 pages before she gets assimilated, during which she can at WORST be described as overly inquisitive.

And hardheaded and brash and not willing to listen to others and needlessly putting people into danger...

On PAD's blog, in the comments section, someone had brought up the fact that he didn't like Janeway. And he admitted it, AFAICR, as well as defending why he did what he did in BD

 

[Trent Roman]

What are you all talking about, 'extreme' portrayal of Janeway? She's only in the book for like 40 pages before she gets assimilated, during which she can at WORST be described as overly inquisitive.

Don't agree. I've mentioned this elsewhere, but the Janeway that was presented in BD came across as a dark, embittered and isolated person, self-convinced and hating herself for it. We've seen that side of Janeway before ("Night", "Equinox", "Friendship One"), and while it's not always a bad thing to be able to call upon one's badass nature (like Janeway channeling Ellen Ripley in "Macrophage"), seven years of television should have demonstrated that this was Janeway in extreme circumstances, and not her usual demeanor. If PAD's on record as a hater, then it makes more sense to me that her portrayal was based on memorable 'bad' incidents rather than the humane, good-natured person who starred in most episodes. Also explains the vindictive, humiliating death scene; I recall mentioning when the book came out that it treated Janeway abominably, and now I see it comes from a long-standing vendetta against the character.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Therin of Andor]

now I see it comes from a long-standing vendetta against the character.

PAD is on record as not liking VOY, and not particularly liking Janeway as developed. I'm not sure he even watched much VOY.

But that's not necessarily a "long-standing vendetta".

 

[historypeats]

Well, my opinion regarding this book has changed in a very short amount of time. I think that my disgust over Resistance colored my perception/acceptance of Before Dishonor; I was so glad to see a novel that wasn't written like a series of Wikipedia articles that I forgave it for being so gimmicky.

A little time has allowed me to reflect more on the book, and said reflection is not kind. Why didn't the Borg simply blow up Earth and THEN go after its two human targets? Hell, if they had just chased the Enterprise instead of inexplicably hanging out by the Earth for the entire second half of the book, they would have gotten everything they wanted and made it look easy. The Borg cube's behavior makes about as little sense as the Germans' decision to stop bombing London and attack Russia midway through the Second World War - a nonsensical act that luckily led directly to their defeat. That's all well and good, except the cube is a machine mind, and its decisions don't make any sense when you realize a machine is making them.

It felt...comic-booky? That's not the right word, especially since comics get unfairly painted with a broad brush as universally unrealistic, but it's the same problem I've had with all New Frontier fiction since Restoration. It didn't seem like it took place in the universe I had come to know; if anything, it felt like a tale that would have fit in Myriad Universes as a somewhat interesting "alter-story."

I went on a TrekLit bender last week, churning through Taking Wing, The Sundered, The Red King, Articles of the Federation, and most of Orion's Hounds. Those made me happy to be spending my time reading Trek books. Before Dishonor didn't affect me that way, and it wasn't until now that I realized how odd that was. It didn't feel like time well spent. (Titan does!)

Still hoping CB does good work with Greater Than the Sum...

 

[Trent Roman]

Why didn't the Borg simply blow up Earth and THEN go after its two human targets? Hell, if they had just chased the Enterprise instead of inexplicably hanging out by the Earth for the entire second half of the book, they would have gotten everything they wanted and made it look easy. The Borg cube's behavior makes about as little sense as the Germans' decision to stop bombing London and attack Russia midway through the Second World War - a nonsensical act that luckily led directly to their defeat. That's all well and good, except the cube is a machine mind, and its decisions don't make any sense when you realize a machine is making them.

Ah, you have stumbled across the real reason the Borg where defeated. Y'see, these new Borg are EVIL, but having never been EVIL before, didn't quite know how they were supposed to go about it. And it just so happened that the Einstein's databanks included these spy films from the late 20th/early 21st century featuring a character named Dr. Evil, who must surely be an authority on the subject.

"No, we're not going to blow up the planet. We're just going to wait here doing nothing and assume everything goes to plan. What?"

There are a number of other clues in the text, apart from the Borg's inept scheming. Holding the world ransom for a seemingly small return, Janeway going bald after becoming EVIL, the large cube spanning smaller versions of itself ("We shall call them... Mini-We"), etc.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[David Mack]

the large cube spanning smaller versions of itself ("We shall call them... Mini-We")

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And of course they already have fricken' drones with fricken' laser beams attached to their fricken' heads.

 

[Therin of Andor]

And of course they already have fricken' drones with fricken' laser beams attached to their fricken' heads.

Janeway, after the end credits have rolled: "I'm not really dead. It's just a flesh wound."

 

[William Leisner]

[... T]he Janeway that was presented in BD came across as a dark, embittered and isolated person, self-convinced and hating herself for it. We've seen that side of Janeway before ("Night", "Equinox", "Friendship One"), and while it's not always a bad thing to be able to call upon one's badass nature (like Janeway channeling Ellen Ripley in "Macrophage"), seven years of television should have demonstrated that this was Janeway in extreme circumstances, and not her usual demeanor.[...]

And Before Dishonor opens with Janeway heading out to face the Borg for the first time in two years, an enemy threat she'd thought she had neutralized at that time, and which she stubbornly refused to believe existed throughout most of Resistance. Should she have been playing Irish milkmaid on the holodeck instead?

As far as I'm concerned, Janeway died exactly as she lived: rushing in where angels feared to tread, arrogantly believing she could come to no harm. Only difference is, she's not a television character portrayed by an actress with a pay-or-play contract anymore.

 

[Deano2099]

I recall mentioning when the book came out that it treated Janeway abominably, and now I see it comes from a long-standing vendetta against the character.

A lot of the book does stem from PAD's Vendetta

*groan*

I can't find anything in the comments thread on PADs site saying he hates Janeway. The most contentious thing is:

I find it interesting that just about every negative commentary is based in "I hate 7 of 9" or "I hate Janeway" or "I hate the Borg," which leaves me wondering why those particular fans bought it in the first place. I mean, I appreciate name loyalty, but if an author I like is writing about material that simply doesn't interest me or that I despise, I tend not to buy it.
PAD

He also points out that killing Janeway was never his idea in the first place, he was asked to do it.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

now I see it comes from a long-standing vendetta against the character.

PAD is on record as not liking VOY, and not particularly liking Janeway as developed. I'm not sure he even watched much VOY.

But that's not necessarily a "long-standing vendetta".

Shouldn't Margaret Clark or Marco have taken his dislike of Voyager and Janeway into account when approaching him for this project? It would certainly make the author less willing to adhere to canonical characterization or inject their dislike into it, especially since Janeway (to some extent) and Seven of Nine as well as some things from Voyager (and other spin-offs) play such large parts in the storyline.

In regards to Deano2099's post, I think his comment from his site is painting the negative commentary way too broadly, possibly in an attempt to nullify or give less regard to said negative commentary, which definitely seems to outweigh the positive (although, of course as has been seen, that doesn't mean that there aren't quite a few people who did enjoy Before Dishonor, and megakudoes to them). Focusing on those who didn't like it, however: I haven't seen many negative reviews of the book that really say any of the things he mentioned. Indeed, some of the reviews have such phrases as "I hate Janeway" or "I hate Seven", but they also usually have "as they were written/portrayed" at the end. And while I do hate the Borg, or at least am so freaking tired of them, it's really more of a result of Resistance and Before Dishonor than much of what happened before.

And I bought both books right when they came out, and I deliberately avoided reviews and spoilers so I could judge them on their merits alone, as well as the direction they were taking things. However, I did definitely allow my disappointment of Resistance (which if I someone held a gun to my head, I would admit that it was the better of the two, relatively speaking) to affect the way I felt about Before Dishonor. However, my disappointment and sheer dislike of Before Dishonor greatly outstripped Resistance. And that's where I blame the editors.