Archer and TOS

[RobertScorpio]

We all know TOS was made decades before ENTERPRISE was. That was one of the reasons I could never get into Enterprise. I mean, Kirk and company never mention this guy. I think T'pol being in the crew kind of detracts from Spock being 'the first' vulcan and all that.....

But TOS made vague references alot about the past. Can you think of a quasi-reference to Archer back in the old show? Even in passing??

Rob
Scorpio

 

[Nerys Myk]

Why would Kirk or anyone else mention Archer unless the situation called for it? How often do you drop George Washington into your conversations?

 

[USS Excelsior]

There wasn't any reference to Archer obviously.

But there were several references to events from a century before their time, like the USS Horizon contaminating the Ionian society and turning them into Chicago gangsters.

An Earth-Romulan war, although the ship's technology and weapons from that era were described as far more primitive than what we saw on Enterprise.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Why would Kirk or anyone else mention Archer unless the situation called for it? How often do you drop George Washington into your conversations?

Actually, I work with a lot of young people in the NAVY. I am appalled by their lack of our world history, and basic American history. So, yes, I DO drop historic names as much as I can..

Bun in three years we didn't even get mention of Archer. We know the reasons (production of the shows) but it just adds to the perception that ENTERPRISE isn't really part of TOS's history. Kirk is mentioned a few times in TNG, and DS9 as well. But Archer isn't mentioned in 3 years of TOS, 7 years of TNG and 7 years of DS9. I wonder why that is??

Rob
scorpio

 

[RobertScorpio]

There wasn't any reference to Archer obviously.

But there were several references to events from a century before their time, like the USS Horizon contaminating the Ionian society and turning them into Chicago gangsters.

An Earth-Romulan war, although the ship's technology and weapons from that era were described as far more primitive than what we saw on Enterprise.

Yep..and that also gives weight to the fact that had ENTEPRISE been a hit, they have just come out and said "TOS didn't happen"...as was rumored to be the case as I recall

Rob
Scorpio

 

[Nerys Myk]

There wasn't any reference to Archer obviously.

But there were several references to events from a century before their time, like the USS Horizon contaminating the Ionian society and turning them into Chicago gangsters.

An Earth-Romulan war, although the ship's technology and weapons from that era were described as far more primitive than what we saw on Enterprise.

Yep..and that also gives weight to the fact that had ENTEPRISE been a hit, they have just come out and said "TOS didn't happen"...as was rumored to be the case as I recall

Rob
Scorpio

Why would they do that? Fanboy rumors and rambling don't really count.

But on topic. The 1701 was out there for five years. Of those Five years we saw roughly 80 hours of conversation. More than enough time left over for Kirk to wax nostalgicly about Archer.

 

[RobertScorpio]

There wasn't any reference to Archer obviously.

But there were several references to events from a century before their time, like the USS Horizon contaminating the Ionian society and turning them into Chicago gangsters.

An Earth-Romulan war, although the ship's technology and weapons from that era were described as far more primitive than what we saw on Enterprise.

Yep..and that also gives weight to the fact that had ENTEPRISE been a hit, they have just come out and said "TOS didn't happen"...as was rumored to be the case as I recall

Rob
Scorpio

Why would they do that? Fanboy rumors and rambling don't really count.

But on topic. The 1701 was out there for five years. Of those Five years we saw roughly 80 hours of conversation. More than enough time left over for Kirk to wax nostalgicly about Archer.

True...but it only took TNG one episode to mention Kirk by name, and I think the first mention of Kirk in DS9 came in its season three as well. Throw in the fact that when Decker is pointing out past vessels called Enterprise and none of them, as pictured, look remotely like Archer's ship, it is just more proof to me that who ever decided to make Enterprise was just flipping off fans of the old show, which we now know, Berman was never a fan of either. This sliding down the wrong path started, IMO, the moment they made Zeppy a drunken moron instead of the classy guy we saw in TOS...IMO of course.

As for retconning TOS out with Enterprise? The crew make up of that show is very interesting. And in their version, Kirk and Spock had a undeniable sexual tension.

Rob
scorpio

 

[A beaker full of death]

We all know TOS was made decades before ENTERPRISE was. That was one of the reasons I could never get into Enterprise.

Ah.
I couldn't get into it because it was astoundingly juvenile, illiterate and amateurish.

 

[JNG]

I think T'pol being in the crew kind of detracts from Spock being 'the first' vulcan and all that.....

What do you mean by "first" here?

 

[ChristopherPike]

Yep..and that also gives weight to the fact that had ENTEPRISE been a hit, they have just come out and said "TOS didn't happen"...as was rumored to be the case as I recall

I don't buy that guff for a second. So much of ENT hinted towards their direction, even before Manny Coto came along.

Mark my words. In the end, it'll be the so-called real fanboys who'll end up wiping 60's Trek from canon. All the while claiming to honour it. Enterprise like TNG kept a respectful centuries' distance... enough time for any perceived discrepancies to be explained away.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Yep..and that also gives weight to the fact that had ENTEPRISE been a hit, they have just come out and said "TOS didn't happen"...as was rumored to be the case as I recall

I don't buy that guff for a second. So much of ENT hinted towards their direction, even before Manny Coto came along.

Mark my words. In the end, it'll be the so-called real fanboys who'll end up wiping 60's Trek from canon. All the while claiming to honour it. Enterprise like TNG kept a respectful centuries' distance... enough time for any perceived discrepancies to be explained away.

hate to disagree. But the show became a fanboy show the moment they started explaining the differing looks of Klingons and used the Defiant in the mirror universe. Unlike most of you, I think the forth season of Enterprise was nothing but a last ditch effort to make that show some kind of news. Instead it came off desperate and demeaning...sorry..but its just my opinion.

And...the ratings still went down. The finale was probably, next to Shades of Grey and Spocks Brain, one of TREKDOM's most idiotic hours of entertainment.

Rob
Scorpio

 

[Ovation]

Well, they could have altered some dialogue in the remastered TOS to include some name dropping. Imagine the meltdown the internet would have suffered in that case.

In all honesty, I've never really understood why people pose this question (of any "prequel", for that matter). The "name-dropping" of Kirk in TNG was possible, because it came after, and it served a purpose (trying to get TOS fans to "accept" TNG).

The best "in-universe" explanation has already been given. It just wasn't mentioned because it never came up in those 80 hours.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Well, they could have altered some dialogue in the remastered TOS to include some name dropping. Imagine the meltdown the internet would have suffered in that case.

In all honesty, I've never really understood why people pose this question (of any "prequel", for that matter). The "name-dropping" of Kirk in TNG was possible, because it came after, and it served a purpose (trying to get TOS fans to "accept" TNG).

The best "in-universe" explanation has already been given. It just wasn't mentioned because it never came up in those 80 hours.

I had thought about that...in the remastered TMP version they could have put Archer's ship in that collection of ENTERPRISES that Decker shows robo-Ilya

Rob
Scorpio

 

[cooleddie74]

Well, they could have altered some dialogue in the remastered TOS to include some name dropping. Imagine the meltdown the internet would have suffered in that case.

In all honesty, I've never really understood why people pose this question (of any "prequel", for that matter). The "name-dropping" of Kirk in TNG was possible, because it came after, and it served a purpose (trying to get TOS fans to "accept" TNG).

The best "in-universe" explanation has already been given. It just wasn't mentioned because it never came up in those 80 hours.

I had thought about that...in the remastered TMP version they could have put Archer's ship in that collection of ENTERPRISES that Decker shows robo-Ilya

Rob
Scorpio

I thought so, too. Decanonize the "ring ship" and replace it with the NX-01. But then in "First Flight(ENT)" we see a picture of a ring ship on the back wall of the 602 Club in San Francisco so technically those pre-ENT ships are still canon.

 

[Orac]

In Yesterday's Enterprise Riker boasts about the pasting they gave the Klingons on Archer 6, this could be retconned into a reference to Enterprise.

 

[Ronald Held]

How could TOS have referenced anything on ENT, seeing as it was filmed after and not before?
Maybe Archer was not a hero of Kirk's for whatever reason. I would strongly object, even if it could be legally and technically done, to loop over some dialogue with mentions of Archer, T'Pol, etc.
If they had wanted to badly enough, they could have replaced the ringship in TMP with the NX-01, but did not.

 

[Ovation]

In Yesterday's Enterprise Riker boasts about the pasting they gave the Klingons on Archer 6, this could be retconned into a reference to Enterprise.

Actually [anally retentive trekkie mode ON], it was Archer IV (4).[anally retentive trekkie mode OFF].

What's scariest is that I remember that dialogue and its been almost ten years since I've seen the episode.

 

[USS Excelsior]

The ENT episode "Strange New World" with the hallucinatory pollen is supposed to end up being Archer 4, along with another planet that's named after him.

 

[Hofner]

Well...

Spock one made a reference to D'Artagnan who was a character from The Three Musketeers along with... Porthos!

dead silence
...
...
...
...
Ok, ok you're right; that's about the stupidest connection suggestion y'all ever heard of. I'll shut up now.

Robert

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yep..and that also gives weight to the fact that had ENTEPRISE been a hit, they have just come out and said "TOS didn't happen"...as was rumored to be the case as I recall

I don't buy that guff for a second. So much of ENT hinted towards their direction, even before Manny Coto came along.

Mark my words. In the end, it'll be the so-called real fanboys who'll end up wiping 60's Trek from canon. All the while claiming to honour it. Enterprise like TNG kept a respectful centuries' distance... enough time for any perceived discrepancies to be explained away.

hate to disagree. But the show became a fanboy show the moment they started explaining the differing looks of Klingons and used the Defiant in the mirror universe. Unlike most of you, I think the forth season of Enterprise was nothing but a last ditch effort to make that show some kind of news. Instead it came off desperate and demeaning...sorry..but its just my opinion.

And...the ratings still went down. The finale was probably, next to Shades of Grey and Spocks Brain, one of TREKDOM's most idiotic hours of entertainment.

Rob
Scorpio

I agree about the Fourth Season, but my inner fanboy loves it. The First season was about as close to TOS as any Trek show has gotten.

But back on topic. Kirk was never a name dropper. If a reference came up it was because it was relevant to the situation at hand. He mentions Garth because he's about to meet the man. When Lincoln shows up, thats when we discover he is a hero of Kirks. His crew weren't a bunch of dummies so he didn't have to name drop as much for their educational benefit. Instead he expected his junior officers to "educate" him. . Though even Kirks education could use some fine tuning. He couldn't recognize Khan on sight. And it took him a while to recognize Zephram Cochrane. ( Though perhaps the pictures in the history books look slightly different.) "Zeppy" in Metamorphosis was hardly a class act. He was a bit of an ass.

Was Kirk ever mentioned by name in TNG? Naked Now was remake/sequel of Naked Time and they mention the 1701 but did they mention Kirk? I think Scotty mentions Kirk in "Relics" but again those are driven by the situation. Not really casual conversation. IIRC, Roddenberry wanted to keep the TOS reference to a minimum in TNG.