Is it time to put Star Trek to rest?

[Campe]

I want what was kind of promised with season one of Picard — a view of Starfleet and the Federation from the outside looking in. What does the rest of the galaxy think of the people we’ve seen as heroes for the past sixty years? That’s a far more interesting concept than “let’s just do what we’ve done again and again and again with little differences.”

 

[BillJ]

I just want Star Trek, in whatever form it takes, to fire my imagination. Regurgitating the past has gotten boring.

 

[Lynx]

But how much of this have you actually watched? You’ve mentioned before watching reviews as your main source of information on these shows. You seem to refuse to actually watch these shows on their own merits instead relying on someone else’s opinions. That does not create an atmosphere to have an actual conversation based on the newer shows flaws and merits.

Also, you talk about books, which let’s be honest, a producer can come by and come up with their own story and ignore what happened in the one book you seem to go on ad nauseam about. I for one take the books as an entertaining (or not) story and not as something that actually makes a difference to the characters I follow.

You’re allowed to have your own opinions, of course. But it’s hard to have a good faith conversation with someone who doesn’t want to actually engage in the material.

Since your statement about only watching reviwes is totally wrong, I'll give you a brief description of what I've watched or not.

I have watched all of TNG since the early 90's, then on re-runs from 1997 and onwards and then on watching DVDs I've bought.

I've watched all of TOS which one of my channels were nice to air around the same time as TNG started on another channel. I'd also watched the TOS movies, some of them before I started to watch TNG.

I watched the fisrst season of DS9 in 1997. Then the show was cancelled on the channel which aired it. In 2005-2006 I watched the first three seasons of DS9 on an SF channel I had access to, unforrtunately that channel was closed down and it took me some years with problems with lous DVDs before I could buy all the DVDs and watch the whole series from beginning to end.

I've watched all episodes of VOYs seasons 1, 2 and 3. Due to the disaapearance of a certain character, I stopped watching VOY after season 3. Two years later, I changed my mind and started to rent video tapes (totally legal, I must point out) with the episodes in seasons 4 and 5 to catch up with what was aired on one of my channels which happened in the beginning of season 6.
I watched season 6 up to a certain episode which annoyed me so much that I did stop watching the show. I haven't watched the last episodes of season 6 after the s*** episode and not season 7, except for Endgame.

I watched the four first episodes of ENT, then I quit. I didn't like the idea of a retro series, I didn't like the characters, the stories and the overall scenario which didn't look like a pre-TOS series at all.

I watched the NuTrek movies and didn't like them.

I watched five episodes of DSC and found it horrible. I didn't like the characters, I didn't like the scenario, I didn't like the stories and I definitely didn't like the Klingon Mutant Ninja Turtles.

I watched one season of PIC and found it dull, boring, depressive and dystopian. It was like watching a funeral of TNG.

I watched the first season of SNW. I found it sort of OK, except for the "remade" TOS characters but not as good that I wanted to watch more of it.

I haven't watched Lower Decks and only a few Youtube clips of Prodigy.

The only series I've based on reviews is SFA. I watched a few Youtube videos and what I saw was horrible. This isn't even a decent parody, it's crap and iyt's actually ridiculing Star Trek.

And to bring up another incident where I've been criticized for basing my opinion on reviews:

I did base my opinion on the Book Second Self by Una McCormack on a review on memory beta in which the sad destruction and humiliation of the excellent character Elim Garak was described. I had previously read two good books by McCormack in which garak was one of the main characters and i was looking for more such books when I found the review at Memory Beta. Sheer irony that two days before finding that review, I had written some very positive comments about mcCormacks books, statin that they "had given me back the interest for Star Trek books.

Well, so much for being nice!

However, by a coincident I actually found the book in a shop which sells bargain books and also used books which people sells or leave to that shop. Since it didn't cost me more than what a cup of coffee costs at my favorite café and since someone else already had paid full price for it once, I decided to buy it just to read it myself.

So I read it and found it as horrible as I did find the previous review.

Since it is against my principles to burn books or throw rhem in the trashcan, I went back to the shop and just put it back on the shelf. Since it was an used book, i didn't bother to want tje money back for it.

It's gone now, someone else have bought it. I feel sorry for that person.

So that was a complete review on what I've seen or not. Happy now?

I didn’t say people. I said Lynx, in relation to wider issues than so-called ‘NuTrek’, based on his post history.

Stand down, White Knight.

Nothing wrong to have an opinion of NuTrek, is it?

Yeah, I don't want that.

Why not?
Do you really like the recent Dystopia Trek better than classic series like TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY.

I want what was kind of promised with season one of Picard — a view of Starfleet and the Federation from the outside looking in. What does the rest of the galaxy think of the people we’ve seen as heroes for the past sixty years? That’s a far more interesting concept than “let’s just do what we’ve done again and again and again with little differences.”

I can agree with your statement about the perspective of "a view of Starfleet and the Federation from the outside looking in". I would actually like a series with that perspective, maybe from one of the alien races in Star Trek

But I must state that PIC gives a very sad and dystipian view of it. It wasn't or isn't that bad asi it was showed in PIC.

I just want Star Trek, in whatever form it takes, to fire my imagination. Regurgitating the past has gotten boring.

Personally I want good Star Trek, not gloomy and dystopian Star Trek

 

[fireproof78]

This isn't even a decent parody, it's crap and iyt's actually ridiculing Star Trek.

No, it's not. This is completely wrong. It doesn't make fun of any aspect of Star Trek. None of the new shows do.

I just want Star Trek, in whatever form it takes, to fire my imagination. Regurgitating the past has gotten boring.

Exactly. Enough comfort food viewing. If I want that I have VHS and DVDs.

Do you really like the recent Dystopia Trek better than classic series like TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY.

Look up the word dystopia and then realize that it doesn't describe current Star Trek despite the insistence that it must.

This is not a question of better. This is not a desire for "better" but wanting variety. What TOS did.

 

[Mage]

Nothing wrong to have an opinion of NuTrek, is it?

Why not?
Do you really like the recent Dystopia Trek better than classic series like TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY.

NuTrek doesn't exist, Star Trek is Star Trek.

And honestly, it's that last part in this quote that has made me not like how you post. You have decided that your idea of what is good and enjoyable Star Trek is the only logical sense. Every time someone says they like what you dislike, you go into rants on how they are wrong to like it and your have the correct opinion.
If people like something (except of it's the illegal) let them like it. Done and done.

Also, you keep using the word dystopian wrong. Like, seriously wrong.

 

[cooleddie74]

The lighting is annoyingly dimmer and darker, but the shows themselves aren't "dystopian."

 

[F. King Daniel]

Starfleet Academy makes me feel like Kirk at the end of Wrath of Khan .... young again.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

"Everything that is modern is rubbish and I should know because I refuse to engage with any of it".

That's the Lynx way.

It's like talking to someone's decrepit grandad. "Everything was better 20 years ago. The music these days is too loud and you can't hear the words".

Holding up cookie-cutter shite like CSI as the pinnacle of television and claiming it's better than everything made in the last 20 years is an opinion which can only be described as deluded.

Add in the fact that Lynx hasn't actually watched the vast majority of what he rambles about means it's a bad-faith argument on top of that. Utterly pointless even trying to argue with what is essentially a brick wall.

 

[StarTrek1701]

No, Star Trek doesn't have to take a break.

 

[Campe]

@Lynx , I’m not going to answer every one of your points because frankly it’s repetitive and I’m generally getting bored with this. You have your opinions and you’re entitled to them, of course, but you don’t seem to actually really be willing to get out of the box of what you currently watch and enjoy and seem to not be able to be swayed so I generally see little point in continuing the conversation.

But I am going to defend a lot of Kurtzman era Trek.

I’ll start with a general statement and suggest that a lot of these series have season long stories. It’s not really fair to say “I watched five episodes of season one” and say you understand where it’s going. You honestly don’t.

I watched five episodes of DSC and found it horrible. I didn't like the characters, I didn't like the scenario, I didn't like the stories and I definitely didn't like the Klingon Mutant Ninja Turtles.

I’ll admit Disco is probably my least favorite of the shows but I will say the show gets considerably less dark as it goes on. The choice with the Klingons was an interesting albeit controversial choice. Not my favorite choice but it doesn’t hurt Star Trek in my opinion.

I watched one season of PIC and found it dull, boring, depressive and dystopian. It was like watching a funeral of TNG.

I personally think season one of Picard is the best of the series. I appreciate the idea of deconstructing TNG. It does fall apart a little at the end though. Season 2 is not great but the concept is interesting. I am not fond of season 3 but I’ll be honest and say that while it is darker lighting wise, a lot of people with your viewpoint on newer Star Trek find it the best, so maybe you would find appreciation there.

I watched the first season of SNW. I found it sort of OK, except for the "remade" TOS characters but not as good that I wanted to watch more of it.

Nah, it’s excellent. The first two seasons are the best that this era of Trek has to offer. The third season a little less so but it’s a really good show in my book.

I haven't watched Lower Decks and only a few Youtube clips of Prodigy.

The only series I've based on reviews is SFA. I watched a few Youtube videos and what I saw was horrible. This isn't even a decent parody, it's crap and iyt's actually ridiculing Star Trek.

There’s a lot to unpack here.

First and foremost, if there’s a show that’ shows signs of “parody” of Star Trek, it’s Lower Decks. But that’s not even giving the show credit. It’s a lot more than that.

Prodigy is amazing. And it was something I could share with my six year old son. So I love it for that.

SFA isn’t for everyone. But as I’ve said before, basing something on others’ opinions and clips taken out of context isn’t giving anything a fair chance. I was not thinking I was going to like it but it’s actually a lot better than I figured it would be. Not perfect by any stretch but pretty good.

 

[Lynx]

No, it's not. This is completely wrong. It doesn't make fun of any aspect of Star Trek. None of the new shows do.

Well, if it it isn't Intentionally making fun of Star Trek, then it is simply a bad show.

. Enough comfort food viewing. If I want that I have VHS and DVDs.

Yes, fortunately I have too.
But I would like to have something new and watchable too. Plus some good Star Trek books in which great characters from TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY aren't killed of or ruined.

Look up the word dystopia and then realize that it doesn't describe current Star Trek despite the insistence that it must.

You're right about that.

But I can't find a better word for what we have now than "dystopia".

This is not a question of better. This is not a desire for "better" but wanting variety. What TOS did.

I see no variety in most of those series than "doom and gloom".

Star Trek was supposed to be about exploring and exciting adventures in a future better and more hopeful and optimistic than what we have now. It wasn't supposed to be the gloomy and boring 2020's transformed to the future and inherited by a future society.

NuTrek doesn't exist, Star Trek is Star Trek.

And honestly, it's that last part in this quote that has made me not like how you post. You have decided that your idea of what is good and enjoyable Star Trek is the only logical sense. Every time someone says they like what you dislike, you go into rants on how they are wrong to like it and your have the correct opinion.
If people like something (except of it's the illegal) let them like it. Done and done.

Also, you keep using the word dystopian wrong. Like, seriously wrong.

I call it NuTrek just to distinguish it from what we had in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY.

For me it's the logical sense. It's my opinion and I have the right to express it. Obviously I'm not allowed to do that for some reasons I don't understand because when I do, it always ends up with a lot of personal attacks. Then I lose my temper and start acting in the same way as those who attack me personally.

Then the thread is closed and I'm the bad guy!

Isn't it possible to discuss something without getting personal about it?

As for the word "dystopian", I've used it because I can't find a better word for what we have now.

The lighting is annoyingly dimmer and darker, but the shows themselves aren't "dystopian."

Well, I must state that I do find them........ well, gloomy and dark.

"Everything that is modern is rubbish and I should know because I refuse to engage with any of it".

That's the Lynx way.

It's like talking to someone's decrepit grandad. "Everything was better 20 years ago. The music these days is too loud and you can't hear the words".

Holding up cookie-cutter shite like CSI as the pinnacle of television and claiming it's better than everything made in the last 20 years is an opinion which can only be described as deluded.

Add in the fact that Lynx hasn't actually watched the vast majority of what he rambles about means it's a bad-faith argument on top of that. Utterly pointless even trying to argue with what is essentially a brick wall.

And here we go again!
When out of arguments, go for personal attacks!

If it's not too much work for you to go back in this thread, then you'll find a post in which I clearly mentions all the series I've watched which actually is a "vast majority" of what I'm writing about.

@Lynx , I’m not going to answer every one of your points because frankly it’s repetitive and I’m generally getting bored with this. You have your opinions and you’re entitled to them, of course, but you don’t seem to actually really be willing to get out of the box of what you currently watch and enjoy and seem to not be able to be swayed so I generally see little point in continuing the conversation.

But I am going to defend a lot of Kurtzman era Trek.

I’ll start with a general statement and suggest that a lot of these series have season long stories. It’s not really fair to say “I watched five episodes of season one” and say you understand where it’s going. You honestly don’t.

To be honest, I'm not going out of the box because I don't want to!

I do have a clear opinion of what I di like and what I don't like. Even as an eight year old, I knew exactly what music i liked, what books I liked, what TV-programs I liked and what I didn't like.

After watching about 5 episodes or so of a series, it mostly gives me an impression of what I like or not and if I don't like it, I don't watch it. The only exception ever was Stargate Universe which I continued to watch after a short break because it was so bad that it became a joke for me and a guy I worked together with at my daily work at that time. It didn't help to watch most of the episodes, it was still as bad.

I can't force myself to like something which feels totally wrong. I remember that I once bought a solo album from one of the members of a band I liked before it broke up and the music on it it was, well not my taste to say the least.

For about a week, I tried to tell myself that "this is actually a good record and it's good old XX who have done it". But it didn't work for me. I gave up and never listened to it again.

I'll admit Disco is probably my least favorite of the shows but I will say the show gets considerably less dark as it goes on. The choice with the Klingons was an interesting albeit controversial choice. Not my favorite choice but it doesn’t hurt Star Trek in my opinion.

I found the Klingon Mutant Ninja Turtles horrible.
Not to mention Captain Hysterica and her half-witted crew.
I need good stories and good characters to like a series and DSC had none of it.

And it does hurt Star Trek when upcoming series and books will have DSC and PIC as foundation for future stories.

I personally think season one of Picard is the best of the series. I appreciate the idea of deconstructing TNG. It does fall apart a little at the end though. Season 2 is not great but the concept is interesting. I am not fond of season 3 but I’ll be honest and say that while it is darker lighting wise, a lot of people with your viewpoint on newer Star Trek find it the best, so maybe you would find appreciation there.

I have to disagree here. PIC was more like "Mirror DS9" than TNG. It was like watching a funeral.A terrible disappointment for me who have been waiting for years for a 24th century series.

Nah, it’s excellent. The first two seasons are the best that this era of Trek has to offer. The third season a little less so but it’s a really good show in my book.

Maybe the most acceptable of the NuTrek series but not excellent compared to TOS, TNG, DS9 and the first three seasons of VOY.

There's a lot to unpack here.

First and foremost, if there’s a show that’ shows signs of “parody” of Star Trek, it’s Lower Decks. But that’s not even giving the show credit. It’s a lot more than that.

Prodigy is amazing. And it was something I could share with my six year old son. So I love it for that.

SFA isn’t for everyone. But as I’ve said before, basing something on others’ opinions and clips taken out of context isn’t giving anything a fair chance. I was not thinking I was going to like it but it’s actually a lot better than I figured it would be. Not perfect by any stretch but pretty good.

I haven't watched Lower Decks so I can't comment on it.

Prodigy might be likeable but not exactly what I'm looking for.

And yes, I've ony whatched a couple of Youtube videos of SFA which I happened to stumple over when I was looking for music videos.

But it didn't inspire me to start watching it.
It was more like when I was a teenager and heard some rap song for the first time. I thought it was horrible and I still have that feeling about that music.

 

[XCV330]

But it didn't inspire me to start watching it.
It was more like when I was a teenager and heard some rap song for the first time. I thought it was horrible and I still have that feeling about that music.

then don't. But trying to have opinions about things you have barely watched and only know through some kind of reverse contact high, would be like you having an opinion on rap when you maybe heard someone playing Sugar Hill Gang in 81. That arguement is really old (Just to put it into some fun context, the first rap album dropped in 1980. It's long ago from then as the first Big Band ensembles were from then (1935). I'm sure no one much cared if Franny Vaffanculo didn't much care for those strange men playing the kind of music only CERTAIN people played back when SHE was younger, um hmm.

enjoy a world where it's spandex and hair metal all day, withdrawal works every time, things have carbs, Grenada deserves a war epic, mspaint is the pinnacle of human technological achievement and if there's grass on the field, Kes is playing ball in your head guilt-free.

 

[Mage]

It's my opinion and I have the right to express it. Obviously I'm not allowed to do that for some reasons I don't understand because when I do, it always ends up with a lot of personal attacks. Then I lose my temper and start acting in the same way as those who attack me personally.

There is expressing an opinion, and there's always repeating the same things in several topics over and over again in a way that makes it clear that YOU are allowed to express your opinion but when someone says that they do enjoy what you dislike, you keep repeating the same thing. 'It's bad, it's rubbish, it's not real Star Trek, the writers are bad'.
It's fine if you dislike something, and you want to be respected for it. Then also respect it when people like the stuff you dislike. Say, we disagree and move on.

I know you loved the characters of Kes. I did not. Do you see me trying to convince you that I am right? No.
You hate with a passion what happened with Garak in the novels. I loved them. Do you see me trying to tell you that you are wrong not just in a post but in an essay? The same essay you wrote two pages ago AND in atleast three other topics over the last few weeks? No.

Getting to voice an opinion AND being respected for it means you need to do the same.

 

[Set Harth]

enjoy a world where it's spandex and hair metal all day, withdrawal works every time, things have carbs, Grenada deserves a war epic, mspaint is the pinnacle of human technological achievement

don't threaten me with a good time!

 

[fireproof78]

Star Trek was supposed to be about exploring and exciting adventures in a future better and more hopeful and optimistic than what we have now. It wasn't supposed to be the gloomy and boring 2020's transformed to the future and inherited by a future society.

The only optimism in TOS was we could work together and didn't blow ourselves up in World War 3. That's it.

You want the better society of Star Trek then you get World War 3 first.

You're right about that.

But I can't find a better word for what we have now than "dystopia".

It's still completely inaccurate. There is no corruption or singular entity managing all life while issuing top down orders.

There's merely choices and consequences.

I would like to have something new and watchable too.

For All Mankind, The Expanse, Yellowstone, and plenty more.

I don't need new things.

, if it it isn't Intentionally making fun of Star Trek, then it is simply a bad show.

Oh no.

Anyway, if it's bad then I don't watch. Did it with TNG and VOY and ENT and I'll keep doing so if I think it's bad.

Maybe the most acceptable of the NuTrek series but not excellent compared to TOS, TNG, DS9 and the first three seasons of VOY.

Comparison is the thief of joy.

 

[XCV330]

Yeah, I don't want that.

The only loose end I'd like followed up on would be finding out in some throaway line years later that Janeway was finally court martialed for murdering Tuvix, and everyone that abetted her is also brought to justice. Maybe

Spoiler

that's one of the things that keeps EMH so sad in SFA

 

[Campe]

I’ve changed my mind! It is time to give Trek a rest. And here’s a video to explain why:

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[fireproof78]

I’ve changed my mind! It is time to give Trek a rest. And here’s a video to explain why:

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[Lynx]

then don't. But trying to have opinions about things you have barely watched and only know through some kind of reverse contact high, would be like you having an opinion on rap when you maybe heard someone playing Sugar Hill Gang in 81. That arguement is really old (Just to put it into some fun context, the first rap album dropped in 1980. It's long ago from then as the first Big Band ensembles were from then (1935). I'm sure no one much cared if Franny Vaffanculo didn't much care for those strange men playing the kind of music only CERTAIN people played back when SHE was younger, um hmm.

enjoy a world where it's spandex and hair metal all day, withdrawal works every time, things have carbs, Grenada deserves a war epic, mspaint is the pinnacle of human technological achievement and if there's grass on the field, Kes is playing ball in your head guilt-free.

Huh???

There is expressing an opinion, and there's always repeating the same things in several topics over and over again in a way that makes it clear that YOU are allowed to express your opinion but when someone says that they do enjoy what you dislike, you keep repeating the same thing. 'It's bad, it's rubbish, it's not real Star Trek, the writers are bad'.
It's fine if you dislike something, and you want to be respected for it. Then also respect it when people like the stuff you dislike. Say, we disagree and move on.

I know you loved the characters of Kes. I did not. Do you see me trying to convince you that I am right? No.
You hate with a passion what happened with Garak in the novels. I loved them. Do you see me trying to tell you that you are wrong not just in a post but in an essay? The same essay you wrote two pages ago AND in atleast three other topics over the last few weeks? No.

Getting to voice an opinion AND being respected for it means you need to do the same.

I do actually respect other peoples opinions.

But sometimes it's difficult when people who accuse me for not respecting them don't respect me and sooner or later come up with personal attacks.

There's a lot of instigation going on, not only in this thread and I do my best not to fall into that trap.

If you do enjoy the current "dark and gloomy Trek" and destruction of good characters, then do it!

It's your choice!

But don't expect that I should do the same and don't complain if or when Star Trek is "no longer profitable" for Paramount because of people stop watching it.

The only optimism in TOS was we could work together and didn't blow ourselves up in World War 3. That's it.

You want the better society of Star Trek then you get World War 3 first.

Honestly, that World War 3 scenario is a poart of Star Trek I could have lived without.

Because it would only have been rubble and nuclear ash left of Earth and what the Vulcans would have found was a devastated planet.

I don't understand what old Gene and the others were thinking when they came up with that.

"Oh, we have a little war which will totally devatsate the whole world and voila, all of a sudden we have build it up in 10 years to something even better and everyone is happy!"

However,depite my misgivings about that special part of Star Trek, what we got after it was good.

Therefore it's sad to see what we have now instead.

It's still completely inaccurate. There is no corruption or singular entity managing all life while issuing top down orders.

There's merely choices and consequences.

Oh, I would really love to take that debate with you, especially from my point of view and from where I live where corruption and making decisions against the will of the majority of the people are common.

But that would take this discussion far out of topic so I rest my case for now.

For All Mankind, The Expanse, Yellowstone, and plenty more.

I don't need new things.

I don't know anything about For All Mankind and The Expanse and I don't know if it's available on some streaming service which I can use.

But I really liked Yellowstone! The one and only new series which I had followed in recent years.

OK, it's dark, sometimes depressive and also very violent. Not exactly my kind of show when it comes to that aspect.

But I could really identify with the Dutton family and their struggle to keep their farm because I was once involved in a similar struggle when it came to preserving a place which used to be my childhood paradise.

Unfortunately we lost, which because of what I did make some hints about in my comment above about a subject out of topic.

And I have never forgotten and never forgiven.

But because of that, I could identify with the Duttons and really enjoy when they wiped the floor with certain scumbags in high positions.

As for new things, sometimes I want to see sometyhing new and fresh which was possible around the time I stopped watching VOY and didn't want to watch ENT either.

There were Stargate SG-1, Stargate Atlantis, NCIS, NCIS LA, NCIS New Orleans, the CSI series and much more.

But it's hard to find such series now.

Oh no.

Anyway, if it's bad then I don't watch. Did it with TNG and VOY and ENT and I'll keep doing so if I think it's bad.

Exactly what i'm doing. I'd rather watch episodes like Cold Fire and Duet for the 100rd time than watch something new which I don't like

Comparision is the thief of joy.

True!

But sometimes it's necessary.

Just like it is with current NCIS. It's actually watchable because of good stories and some quite good characters but it's far below the standard of the early episodes of the series when the original main characters still were there.

 

[Starflight]

If you do enjoy the current "dark and gloomy Trek" and destruction of good characters, then do it!

You know, Lynx, as someone who largely agrees with you I'd actually push back at the "dark and gloomy Trek" thing. Picard and DSC sort of fit, but SNW and SFA are both trying something different.

Whether or not they're doing it well is up for debate, but SFA in particular really feels like it's trying to fight back against the HBO-y gloom of modern TV (though it's still got one foot in that world and can't quite fully detach itself). It's interesting to watch even if the show itself isn't always great, just because it does actually feel like a group of writers grappling with the fact that a cultural era is ending.