What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Christopher]

I don't think it's that weird for it to be a situation where they have to fix the problem to make the door open, denying them the easy option of just taking the problem out through the door. It would've been much worse if they just didn't think of it.

But the story didn't specifically say they couldn't fix the problem that way. So it just seems like a possibility that never occurred to the writers or the characters. It never occurred to me for decades, but then one day I realized, "Hey, why couldn't they just have taken Edith back with them?" Or at least, why didn't they even consider it as a possibility, even if they then ruled it out? Whether we can think up explanations decades after the fact is irrelevant, because the point is that the episode itself neglected the possibility.

 

[Shawnster]

Couldn't Kirk have just brought her back with him through the Guardian?... Although maybe the Guardian wouldn't have allowed that, but the episode didn't specify.

There you go. Out of Kirk's control. He had no choice. The Guardian made the rules.

The arrangement was that they'd be returned once they were successful at stopping McCoy changing history.

And, as noted, Keeler's death was documented in historical records. Although how Spock accessed said obit is a plot hole.

The episode would have let them bring her back if that had been in the mind of the writers. In 1967 pulling a Gillian Taylor wasn't on the writer's mind. Neither Harlan nor any of the people who took his original story and changed it. She was going to die, and had to die.

We will have none of your logic here, sir.

And the only reason the Guardian couldn't just tell them where McCoy went or send them to the same time to retrieve him was because the story had to be complicated. It's an ancient time portal. It should be more useable. Very forced.

It? There is a persona named Carl. Not an it. How rude.

But the story didn't specifically say they couldn't fix the problem that way. So it just seems like a possibility that never occurred to the writers or the characters. It never occurred to me for decades, but then one day I realized, "Hey, why couldn't they just have taken Edith back with them?" Or at least, why didn't they even consider it as a possibility, even if they then ruled it out? Whether we can think up explanations decades after the fact is irrelevant, because the point is that the episode itself neglected the possibility.

On all honesty, when did you consider that possibility? Was it before or after being influenced by time travel stories with a similar situation?

 

[Farscape One]

There you go. Out of Kirk's control. He had no choice. The Guardian made the rules.




And, as noted, Keeler's death was documented in historical records. Although how Spock accessed said obit is a plot hole.



We will have none of your logic here, sir.



It? There is a persona named Carl. Not an it. How rude.





On all honesty, when did you consider that possibility? Was it before or after being influenced by time travel stories with a similar situation?

Regarding the plot hole of Spock finding the obituary...

He did take scans and started recording what the Guardian was showing before McCoy stepped through. That is where he got the information... he just needed to look around and connect the dots, which is why he was building that stuff out of outdated material.

 

[Christopher]

On all honesty, when did you consider that possibility? Was it before or after being influenced by time travel stories with a similar situation?

"Honesty?" Who's being dishonest? I already said explicitly that it only occurred to me decades after the fact. That is my entire point, that it's an alternative perspective it eventually struck me to consider. It bugs me when a story claims that there's only one possible solution to a problem, but then I think of another solution the story failed to rule out.

 

[BillJ]

It's an ancient time portal. It should be more useable. Very forced.

Probably was. Very usable by the far more advanced people who built it.

 

[XCV330]

"Honesty?" Who's being dishonest? I already said explicitly that it only occurred to me decades after the fact. That is my entire point, that it's an alternative perspective it eventually struck me to consider. It bugs me when a story claims that there's only one possible solution to a problem, but then I think of another solution the story failed to rule out.

And yet another thing I loved then and now about TVH: Gillian Taylor just goes for it. I think most of us watching were expecting yet another time travel story character getting left behind parting-is-such-yadda-yadda, but like Mary Steenburgen's character in Time After Time a few years earlier, she's not willing to just be dragged unwillingly into this new situation and left behind. She uses her own agency and goes into the future.

But no one ever even tried just being honest with Keeler.

 

[Tallguy]

Where was the indication that the Guardian would have taken Keeler? Kirk, Spock, and McCoy didn't really have any agency.

 

[BillJ]

I don’t think one can trick the Guardian. If it says you have to put things right, that doesn’t mean try to fake it. It means that the events that happened had to be restored to the state that they were.

 

[DarrenTR1970]

Just put of curiosity to those who have had access to the Roddenberry archive, what does Harlan Ellison original script say about Edith Keeler and her place in history?

 

[XCV330]

I don’t think one can trick the Guardian. If it says you have to put things right, that doesn’t mean try to fake it. It means that the events that happened had to be restored to the state that they were.

I mean he basically let Empress Georgio off the hook and survive what should have been a horrible death by letting her have a good morality lesson. Maybe no one ever asked him. But GoF probably had mellowed out by then, discovered cigar smoking, etc.

 

[fireproof78]

I mean he basically let Empress Georgio off the hook and survive what should have been a horrible death by letting her have a good morality lesson. Maybe no one ever asked him. But GoF probably had mellowed out by then, discovered cigar smoking, etc.

War changes a person.

 

[XCV330]

War changes a person.

it can turn a good man into Cronenberg.

 

[Campe]

Just put of curiosity to those who have had access to the Roddenberry archive, what does Harlan Ellison original script say about Edith Keeler and her place in history?

I don’t have access to the Roddenberry archive, but I have Ellison’s original script (it was published back in 1995). I’m skimming it now and the (1st) Guardian says that Beckwith (the Starfleet officer “selling drugs”) will save the one who must die and something about blue which happens to be the color of the cape Edith is wearing when Kirk and Spock meet her. It references the start of World War II and that “history and time demand” that Keeler dies.

 

[BillJ]

I mean he basically let Empress Georgio off the hook and survive what should have been a horrible death by letting her have a good morality lesson. Maybe no one ever asked him. But GoF probably had mellowed out by then, discovered cigar smoking, etc.

I still haven’t watched those Discovery episodes. I’m doubtful if I ever will.

 

[cooleddie74]

View attachment 52228
it can turn a good man into Cronenberg.

Matt Winston aged HARD.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think the "Terra Firma" episodes are two of the best DISCO episodes, both of them, right up there with "Redemption III". How's that for controversial?

All three are also up there with "If Memory Serves". IDK, that last pick as a top tier DISCO episode may not be so controversial, though?

 

[DarrenTR1970]

Matt Winston aged HARD.

FYI
Matt Winston is the son of the late great special effect artist Stan Winston.

 

[DarrenTR1970]

View attachment 52228
it can turn a good man into Cronenberg.

I always find it amusing when he turns up in movies or television; this director who makes these weird, creepy movies having some fun being weird and creepy.

 

[cooleddie74]

FYI
Matt Winston is the son of the late great special effect artist Stan Winston.

Oh, I know.

 

[Farscape One]

I always find it amusing when he turns up in movies or television; this director who makes these weird, creepy movies having some fun being weird and creepy.

Truthfully?

I hope he keeps doing that. Works perfectly for him.