Jonathan Goldstein and John Francis Daley developing Star Trek reboot for Paramount

[DaveyNY]

Copium can be a soothing comfort, hope you have a steady supply.



So you really accept the the Romulans were wiped out just because the home planet of their interstellar empire is destroyed and they conveniently need Spock to fix it? An empire whose ships are powered by micro black holes and are warp capable that can't evacuate their planet to other worlds in their empire in time before a supernova.

Its such a flimsy excuse to hire Nimoy. It was a gimmick to attempt to somehow both anchor the jjverse into proper trek and the reimagined shitty parody version of trek.

Coincidence is a mainstay of the Star Trek Universe.
Has been since day one.
Why is this one example any worse (or better for that matter) than the hundreds of others through out the 50+ years of episodes.

 

[Stewey]

Coincidence is a mainstay of the Star Trek Universe.
Has been since day one.
Why is this one example any worse (or better for that matter) than the hundreds of others through out the 50+ years of episodes.

Or it was really bad writing to insert a beloved character into a reboot movie. Having their cake and failing to eat it.

 

[DaveyNY]

Or it was really bad writing to insert a beloved character into a reboot movie. Having their cake and failing to eat it.

Only in your world.

Pretty sure that most everybody else is fine with it.

 

[Stewey]

Only in your world.

Pretty sure that most everybody else is fine with it.

So you are happy to accept any old crap under the franchise label as long as "its more star trek"?

 

[Santa Kang]

So you are happy to accept any old crap under the franchise label as long as "its more star trek"?

 

[Dukhat]

So you are happy to accept any old crap under the franchise label as long as "its more star trek"?

Except there are fans who don’t think the Abrams films were ‘any old crap.’ As I said before, you are welcome to hate it. But don’t talk like your opinion is shared by Trek fans the world over.

 

[DaveyNY]

So you are happy to accept any old crap under the franchise label as long as "its more star trek"?

Sorry but your "any old crap", is by most other folks standards, just fine new stuff.

It's apparent after all these years, you just love to piss & moan and have such high expectations, that nothing you haven't created in your own mind, will ever please you.
It's an impossible standard that none of the episodes of Star Trek can live up to.

You don't debate, you make demands... that only works in a world where you live alone and are perfect.
And that world my friend, despite you apparently believing otherwise, does not exist.

And with that, have a lovely Thanksgiving evening, I'm done.

 

[Noname Given]

Indeed, which is why in-universe, DS9's Trials and Tribble-ations" and ENT's "In a Mirror, Darkly" made full use of TOS' ships, hand devices, costumes, etc., all (as noted yesterday) taken as and experienced at face value as the real, canonical / in-universe account, not a "dramatization" of events which wiped away the specifics of TOS as something to disregard.



All true, but that's to be expected with some driven by an agenda to erase, upend or replace TOS in their prequel series. It is an agenda doomed from the start, but they're still trying.

Yes, because the episodes you mentioned were pretty much one offs. (And yes IaMD was a two parter.)

 

[Set Harth]

So you really accept the the Romulans were wiped out just because the home planet of their interstellar empire is destroyed

Who said they were wiped out? Didn't STO specifically state otherwise?

 

[Turtletrekker]

So you really accept the the Romulans were wiped out just because the home planet of their interstellar empire is destroyed and they conveniently need Spock to fix it? An empire whose ships are powered by micro black holes and are warp capable that can't evacuate their planet to other worlds in their empire in time before a supernova.

While I certainly have my issues with the Kelvin movies, I think you are sorely underestimating the logistics behind having to evacuate a planet whose population is in the billions in the amount of time that the Romulans had.

One must also take into account the fact that the Romulan empire, as well as the Klingons and the Federation, were less than a decade away from the end of a very costly war with the Dominion, that would have seriously depleted ships and resources.

Would the ships they had left be capable of mounting such an operation? Did they have the capability of building enough ships capable of evacuating entire populations in the time they had left? I'm thinking of the real world parallel where the United States was able to overwhelm Axis powers through sheer industrial capacity in WWII when tanks were practically being built on assembly lines.

Later canon (yes, "canon". Deal with it.) shows that Starfleet had a ship specifically designed for evacuations of this sort - the Wallenberg class. Also, Federation starship production at Utopia Planitia would be assisted by replication technology to the point where the ships are almost put together by themselves. (I mark this down to improvements made by Commander Shelby when she said that her task force would "get the fleet back up in less than a year".) Did the Romulans have industrial capacity of that magnitude?

Also, and finally, the Romulans were hardly "wiped out" in that event. While there were certainly displaced refugees, and despite the abolishment of the neutral zone to accommodate them, the Empire itself merely reorganized into the Romulan Free State. The Federation itself still honors all of its treaties with the former Empire, so you can't say that it isn't a continuation of governmental structure in all but name. The Romulans were certainly large and relevant enough of a faction to be considered equal partners on the reunified Ni'var.

Its such a flimsy excuse to...

... bash new Trek.

 

[Tuskin38]

I don't know why you people are bothering with talking to a brick wall. You're not going to change their mind.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

And who gets to declare the "shoulda" of the franchise? I wasn't aware there was a rule to Star Trek?

Its called structure. Shit just did not happen all over the place. The in-universe content and finished productions were recognized as the same, connected history, as demonstrated with the TOS-themed DS9 and ENT episodes...which is the counter to your "TOS as a dramatization not existing exactly as shown" / "That doesn't make them correct. Just one interpretation" positions.

I never argued otherwise. That strawman army is really taking a beating.

No.

You posted:

So we should have more TOS shows is what I'm hearing?

Suggesting that was my point--when it was not, which certainly smells like an attempt to lead to a false negative you would attack if someone actually took that "...more TOS shows" position.

 

[fireproof78]

episodes...which is the counter to your "TOS as a dramatization not existing exactly as shown" / "That doesn't make them correct. Just one interpretation" /

Not really.

Suggesting that was my point--when it was not, which certainly smells like an attempt to lead to a false negative you would attack if someone actually took that "...more TOS shows" position.

Hardly.

I simply maintain that the way characters act in TOS doesn't fit perfectly with future Star Trek. It's not that there isn't shared history; only that's it is not a perfect 1:1 recreation of how these characters behave.

Nowhere did I argue they're unconnected. Just that it isn't a perfect connection and feels very different to me. Others in this thread have noted similar feelings.

And art is always open to interpretation.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Not really.

Your words, your intent:

"TOS as a dramatization not existing exactly as shown"

"That doesn't make them correct. Just one interpretation"

You can attempt to spin what you so obviously meant, but the ST productions springing from TOS, which in turn made direct use of/references to TOS (specifically the DS9 & ENT episodes in question) were not a matter subject to individual interpretation (i.e., what was filmed as a finished product in the 1960s) whether you accept that or not.

I simply maintain that the way characters act in TOS doesn't fit perfectly with future Star Trek. It's not that there isn't shared history; only that's it is not a perfect 1:1 recreation of how these characters behave.

No one should expect people to behave the same way with the march of time (which was not the argument). That is part of the evolution to another chapter mentioned time and again in this thread, including ship design. Part of the success of The Wrath of Khan was that the main characters did recapture that from TOS which made them memorable, yet they also exhibited the personality changes that come with age, as one should expect of people no longer the exact same people they were 15 years earlier. Again, they are close enough that it was clear TWOK's crew were instantly accepted as the natural building on their earlier, TOS versions.

 

[fireproof78]

You can attempt to spin what you so obviously meant, but the ST productions springing from TOS, which in turn made direct use of/references to TOS (specifically the DS9 & ENT episodes in question) were not a matter subject to individual interpretation (i.e., what was filmed as a finished product in the 1960s) whether you accept that or not.

I didn't say they didn't spring from TOS. They can reference it all thru want. That doesn't make the characters exactly the same people.

ETA: To illustrate my point a little bit further: these two people are not the same character:

Now, they both represent Colonel Blake from an adaptation of MASH, and are intended to be in the same setting, with similar background, and serving in the US ARMY in Korea. That they are not in continuity with each other does not remove the influence felt from one to the other.

Again, they are close enough that it was clear TWOK's crew were instantly accepted as the natural building on their earlier, TOS versions.

I'm happy it was instant for some. It wasn't for me.

 

[Stewey]

Except there are fans who don’t think the Abrams films were ‘any old crap.’ As I said before, you are welcome to hate it. But don’t talk like your opinion is shared by Trek fans the world over.

I could say the same to you about your opinions, but I won't.

But you dodged the question so I will rephrase it slightly;

Would you accept and or watch a lower quality show than previous higher quality shows that you like simply because for you it is Star Trek?

Sorry but your "any old crap", is by most other folks standards, just fine new stuff.

It's apparent after all these years, you just love to piss & moan and have such high expectations, that nothing you haven't created in your own mind, will ever please you.
It's an impossible standard that none of the episodes of Star Trek can live up to.

You don't debate, you make demands... that only works in a world where you live alone and are perfect.
And that world my friend, despite you apparently believing otherwise, does not exist.

And with that, have a lovely Thanksgiving evening, I'm done.

I'm British, Americans have a tendency to think everyone they communicate with online are their fellow Americans. But anyhow hope you had a good thanksgiving holiday.

Who said they were wiped out? Didn't STO specifically state otherwise?

STO?

While I certainly have my issues with the Kelvin movies, I think you are sorely underestimating the logistics behind having to evacuate a planet whose population is in the billions in the amount of time that the Romulans had.

One must also take into account the fact that the Romulan empire, as well as the Klingons and the Federation, were less than a decade away from the end of a very costly war with the Dominion, that would have seriously depleted ships and resources.

Would the ships they had left be capable of mounting such an operation? Did they have the capability of building enough ships capable of evacuating entire populations in the time they had left? I'm thinking of the real world parallel where the United States was able to overwhelm Axis powers through sheer industrial capacity in WWII when tanks were practically being built on assembly lines.

Later canon (yes, "canon". Deal with it.) shows that Starfleet had a ship specifically designed for evacuations of this sort - the Wallenberg class. Also, Federation starship production at Utopia Planitia would be assisted by replication technology to the point where the ships are almost put together by themselves. (I mark this down to improvements made by Commander Shelby when she said that her task force would "get the fleet back up in less than a year".) Did the Romulans have industrial capacity of that magnitude?

Also, and finally, the Romulans were hardly "wiped out" in that event. While there were certainly displaced refugees, and despite the abolishment of the neutral zone to accommodate them, the Empire itself merely reorganized into the Romulan Free State. The Federation itself still honors all of its treaties with the former Empire, so you can't say that it isn't a continuation of governmental structure in all but name. The Romulans were certainly large and relevant enough of a faction to be considered equal partners on the reunified Ni'var.


... bash new Trek.

Even in real life, we have an indication of when our own star is likely to die (al be it a very rough estimate with quite a margin for error) and our technology is primitive compared to the level of tech in the 24th century. There would be way more time to determine when the star will go nova than was shown in the jj reboot.

 

[Adventerprise]

I suppose it depends on what caused the impending death. Compare it to a person: if one has a long term fatal condition (e.g. some fatal syndrome), it can be detected early if it begins slowly. If one develops a sudden onset terminal condition (e.g. ultimately lethal high-dose radiation poisoning) it can't be detected before it starts (one's exposure).

 

[Turtletrekker]

Even in real life, we have an indication of when our own star is likely to die (al be it a very rough estimate with quite a margin for error) and our technology is primitive compared to the level of tech in the 24th century. There would be way more time to determine when the star will go nova than was shown in the jj reboot.

Which isn't what you were talking about before. Before you were saying that the Romulans were wiped out. Move the goalposts much? And, as I said, I have my own issues with the Kelvin movies and this just happens to be one of them.

However, if dodgy science turned me off of Star Trek, then I never would have made it past the "galactic barrier" in Where No Man Has Gone Before.

 

[Stewey]

Which isn't what you were talking about before. Before you were saying that the Romulans were wiped out. Move the goalposts much? And, as I said, I have my own issues with the Kelvin movies and this just happens to be one of them.

However, if dodgy science turned me off of Star Trek, then I never would have made it past the "galactic barrier" in Where No Man Has Gone Before.

Not seen the reboot film (not that I ever plan to do so again) for years so maybe I mis-remembered. Trek (at least in the past) always attempted to use as much real science as possible and that movie should at least try do do that. Whatever, is was extremely bad writing.

 

[Dukhat]

I could say the same to you about your opinions, but I won't.

What opinions were those?

But you dodged the question so I will rephrase it slightly;

Would you accept and or watch a lower quality show than previous higher quality shows that you like simply because for you it is Star Trek?

I already have. I thought Star Trek Picard was utter shit, but I watched it anyway and accept that it’s part of the canon whether I liked it or hated it. Does that answer your question now?