The Delta Flyers now covering DS9

[VDCNI]

Well I finished it and the latter part is less stupid but still bad.

Them still going on about making the aliens look more alien without even thinking for a second why it's key for them to look human and then Robbie wanting a comedy b-story about Quarks advertising in this of all episodes was painful.

Robbie's only real complaint seemed to be about the time jumps which ok aren't always the clearest but aren't particularly confusing either and are the only way to tell this story in the time they have.

To be fair to Armin, though he would have likely been pedantic, how come Bashir is allowed off the station for so long, I think he is more likely to appreciate the quality of this episode.

 

[Crewman6]

To be fair to Armin, though he would have likely been pedantic, how come Bashir is allowed off the station for so long, I think he is more likely to appreciate the quality of this episode.

Armin would have spent 40 minutes complaining that both Bashir and Kira should never, ever have left the station at all, let alone for over a week's time.

 

[Poltargyst]

I can't imagine how he made it through 7 seasons of Voyager. If he were consistent, he'd have to rate 90% of the episodes of that show as a 3 or lower.

I know I do.

 

[Crewman6]

I know I do.

Don't we all?

 

[ananta]

Ok, this episode gave me my new signature!

Theory: RDM is acting like Berman. His experience of Star Trek is Berman hanging over his shoulder, so he thinks he needs to act just like Berman.

Love the signature. My favourite Terry quote was from another episode. Garrett was making some ludicrous nitpick about something, and she told him “You just stay in your Voyager lane!” I do love Terry. She says it in a funny and inoffensive way too. I managed to forgive her for her (and Robbie’s) confusion over Kira leaving them on the planet and hiding in the nebula for a week. That plot point was clearly explained and anyone who was listening should have got it.

Regarding Robbie, I think there’s some ego at play and it’s just become more and more clear to me as the weeks have passed. He’s a producer now and I think he sees himself as this skilled storyteller—when, in fact, based on many of his comments, criticisms and suggestions, I frankly don’t think he has a decent instinct for story whatsoever. Based on some his comments on this podcast, I’d keep him far away from any writers’ room.

Could it be that he maybe sees himself above Star Trek and above the DS9 writers, producers and directors? I get when you’re reviewing something you’re going to find things to criticise. But he’s going way overboard. It many cases it’s not being done lovingly or affectionately; it’s like he’s going out of his way to pull things apart. This episode was just the nadir for me. His criticisms were so overboard and weak I can only conclude he’s being deliberately harsh either because he doesn’t like the show or sees himself as above it.

Also couldn’t believe there was was a question about why DS9 didn’t have more humour and Robbie said the writers clearly don’t have an aptitude or ability to write humour. What?! This is DS9. It has more comedy episodes than any other Trek, and at least in my opinion, it’s better at comedy than any other incarnation of Trek. What is he talking about?

I had the same thought about Voyager. Given his often deeply unfair negativity, I can't imagine how he made it through 7 seasons of Voyager. If he were consistent, he'd have to rate 90% of the episodes of that show as a 3 or lower.

That’s just it. I don’t really like Voyager so no way I’d listen to their Voyager reviews, but I did a little digging and found a list of Robbie and Garrett’s episode ratings for Voyager. Both of them rated Voyager episodes much, MUCH higher than the average DS9 episode. As mentioned before, Robbie rated those trash Irish holodeck episodes 8.5 apparently, and Garrett a 9!

Obviously they’ll naturally have fondness for their own show, but there’s no objectivity there. Their opinions mean nothing to me now. I wish they could just hand the podcast over to Terry and Armin. I’d definitely keep listening to them, in spite of Armin’s critical excesses himself.

Well I finished it and the latter part is less stupid but still bad.

Them still going on about making the aliens look more alien without even thinking for a second why it's key for them to look human and then Robbie wanting a comedy b-story about Quarks advertising in this of all episodes was painful.

Robbie's only real complaint seemed to be about the time jumps which ok aren't always the clearest but aren't particularly confusing either and are the only way to tell this story in the time they have.

To be fair to Armin, though he would have likely been pedantic, how come Bashir is allowed off the station for so long, I think he is more likely to appreciate the quality of this episode.

The nitpicks on this episode were just utterly stupid at points. Actually complaining that the aliens should have been GREEN or have a wrinkle on their nose or whatever, and failing to discuss the fascinating deeper aspects of the plot, such as euthanasia (love the way the character of Trevean was elegantly handled and not completely vilified) and the fact we actually get to see how utterly evil the Dominion is—it’s one thing telling us the bad guys are bad, but we get to see in painful, vivid detail here and it makes for one of the most harrowing episodes of Trek ever made. I gave up on the last hour of the podcast because I was just so annoyed, so maybe the discussion got better, I don’t know,

I personally liked the fact the episode was set over several weeks and didn’t have an issue with the time jumps. For me it’s a solid 9 at minimum. It’s just incredibly rich, engaging and emotionally devastating. If RDM and GW don’t see the quality of an episode like this, I can totally see them just nitpicking over upcoming classics like “Far Beyond the Stars” and “In the Pale Moonlight” and rating each 6.3 or whatever.

I won’t be here for it though, so they can knock themselves out.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Regarding Robbie, I think there’s some ego at play and it’s just become more and more clear to me as the weeks have passed. He’s a producer now and I think he sees himself as this skilled storyteller—when, in fact, based on many of his comments, criticisms and suggestions, I frankly don’t think he has a decent instinct for story whatsoever. Based on some his comments on this podcast, I’d keep him far away from any writers’ room.

Could it be that he maybe sees himself above Star Trek and above the DS9 writers, producers and directors? I get when you’re reviewing something you’re going to find things to criticise. But he’s going way overboard. It many cases it’s not being done lovingly or affectionately; it’s like he’s going out of his way to pull things apart. This episode was just the nadir for me. His criticisms were so overboard and weak I can only conclude he’s being deliberately harsh either because he doesn’t like the show or sees himself as above it.

Also couldn’t believe there was was a question about why DS9 didn’t have more humour and Robbie said the writers clearly don’t have an aptitude or ability to write humour. What?! This is DS9. It has more comedy episodes than any other Trek, and at least in my opinion, it’s better at comedy than any other incarnation of Trek. What is he talking about?

I certainly agree with all these things, but I had something more specific in mind. Rick Berman had a way of giving notes that was ornery. Of course, he famously aped Roddenberry , or what he thought Roddenberry would say, about scripts and dailies. Moore and Echevaria have said that it would go deeper than that, down to specific choices in scenes and words. They found it infuriating. From what I can tell, directors might expect similar scrutiny from the showrunner. Behr has said that Brooks was always calling him about the episodes he directed. That was unusual. However, there were plenty of meetings for directors and showrunners, so called tone meetings. Perhaps the most famous example from Way of the Warrior, where Jeff Connelly stopped Shimerman and Robinson in the root beer scene to tell them Behr and Wolfe has told him very different things about the scene. I believe Behr was the guy who did that on DS9, but it took years to wrest that away from Berman. Indeed, Behr didn't get the right to see edited cuts until the end of year 6, which Berman conditioned on not showing them to the other writers (which Behr did anyway). No one on Voyager spent years taking control of the show. Jeri Taylor was ceding control in year 3. The showrunner seat was a game of musical chairs.

What if every director had to deal directly with Berman? What if McNeill, for all his episodes, took notes from Berman, after it was Berman who sent him through Star Trek directing school. I'm wondering whether McNeill absorbed something of Berman's attitude about producing, either specifically when applied to Star Trek or in general. Does McNeill feel (perhaps unconsciously) he needs to be the voice of Gene in the room?

 

[Takeru]

That’s just it. I don’t really like Voyager so no way I’d listen to their Voyager reviews, but I did a little digging and found a list of Robbie and Garrett’s episode ratings for Voyager. Both of them rated Voyager episodes much, MUCH higher than the average DS9 episode. As mentioned before, Robbie rated those trash Irish holodeck episodes 8.5 apparently, and Garrett a 9!

Obviously they’ll naturally have fondness for their own show, but there’s no objectivity there. Their opinions mean nothing to me now.

When they watched Voyager they weren't just watching a tv show, they remembered parts of their lifes. The Ireland episode might have been trash but they probably remembered how fun it was to get out the studio and film outdoors for a few days.
And even average episodes where they might not remember the specifics of a scene in a hallway, they remember those sets, the actors and the time spend on those stages. The entire podcast was a walk down memory lane when it was about Voyager, when it became about DS9 they started watching a show they had no personal connection to at all outside if the one scene in Quark's in the Voyager pilot.
It doesn't surprise me me at all that they rated Voyager episodes higher on average.

 

[ananta]

I certainly agree with all these things, but I had something more specific in mind. Rick Berman had a way of giving notes that was ornery. Of course, he famously aped Roddenberry , or what he thought Roddenberry would say, about scripts and dailies. Moore and Echevaria have said that it would go deeper than that, down to specific choices in scenes and words. They found it infuriating. From what I can tell, directors might expect similar scrutiny from the showrunner. Behr has said that Brooks was always calling him about the episodes he directed. That was unusual. However, there were plenty of meetings for directors and showrunners, so called tone meetings. Perhaps the most famous example from Way of the Warrior, where Jeff Connelly stopped Shimerman and Robinson in the root beer scene to tell them Behr and Wolfe has told him very different things about the scene. I believe Behr was the guy who did that on DS9, but it took years to wrest that away from Berman. Indeed, Behr didn't get the right to see edited cuts until the end of year 6, which Berman conditioned on not showing them to the other writers (which Behr did anyway). No one on Voyager spent years taking control of the show. Jeri Taylor was ceding control in year 3. The showrunner seat was a game of musical chairs.

What if every director had to deal directly with Berman? What if McNeill, for all his episodes, took notes from Berman, after it was Berman who sent him through Star Trek directing school. I'm wondering whether McNeill absorbed something of Berman's attitude about producing, either specifically when applied to Star Trek or in general. Does McNeill feel (perhaps unconsciously) he needs to be the voice of Gene in the room?

Ah, I get what you mean. That could well be part of the reason for his antipathy. Berman definitely had a rigid and overpowering sense of what Trek is and isn’t…and it’s no secret he didn’t have all that much love for DS9, in spite of being its co-creator.

When they watched Voyager they weren't just watching a tv show, they remembered parts of their lifes. The Ireland episode might have been trash but they probably remembered how fun it was to get out the studio and film outdoors for a few days.
And even average episodes where they might not remember the specifics of a scene in a hallway, they remember those sets, the actors and the time spend on those stages. The entire podcast was a walk down memory lane when it was about Voyager, when it became about DS9 they started watching a show they had no personal connection to at all outside if the one scene in Quark's in the Voyager pilot.
It doesn't surprise me me at all that they rated Voyager episodes higher on average.

That makes sense and is natural, of course. But when comparing the ratings and how they’re holding DS9 to a MUCH higher critical standard, that just loses me. While obviously opinions vary, I frankly wouldn’t trust the opinion of somebody who genuinely believes that the quality of writing, acting, production, continuity and overall consistency of DS9 was inferior to Voyager. They are simply worlds apart in terms of quality. RDM and GW are basically selling a product, and radically adjusting their critical standards just because they weren’t in the show does not sit well with me whatsoever.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Ah, I get what you mean. That could well be part of the reason for his antipathy. Berman definitely had a rigid and overpowering sense of what Trek is and isn’t…and it’s no secret he didn’t have all that much love for DS9, in spite of being its co-creator.

I think his tone has changed about the series. He ended up having less creative input than the other series, and I am sure that there are specific things that irked him. I love the story how in a meeting with Behr, he looked outside the building over at the Hart Building, where the writers were, and saw all the DS9 writers hanging out, dressed like Behr with some form of goatee or facial hair, and said, "Your people!" He had many personal frustrations not having the control of the show the way he had over the others, and he probably had all his authority filtered trough Behr. However, I think he is proud of DS9. It's rather easy to hate on him, especially as Niners, especially since all the DS9 writers have been the most critical of Berman. The Farrell thing was terribly, but I would not say it was outside the bounds of Hollywood. And arguably, he set standards that helped the franchise.

 

[AntonyF]

Lately his understanding and instincts around the writing and stories have often been completely wrong.

I haven't listened to the podcast so comment on that basis... but I think yes he was in Voyager, and he's had a bit of directing work since then... but at the end of the day he's just another person with an opinion like anyone here at Trek BBS.

He may have a podcast, we may think he's elevated having worked on the show... but none of this gives him a particularly different opinion to most of us. You could argue even less so, vs the fans that have lived and breathed and rewatched this franchise many times.

 

[VDCNI]

I haven't listened to the podcast so comment on that basis... but I think yes he was in Voyager, and he's had a bit of directing work since then... but at the end of the day he's just another person with an opinion like anyone here at Trek BBS.

He may have a podcast, we may think he's elevated having worked on the show... but none of this gives him a particularly different opinion to most of us. You could argue even less so, vs the fans that have lived and breathed and rewatched this franchise many times.

He's worked as a producer director on shows like Chuck and Resident Alien and often makes observations from that perspective.

It's not just a bit of directing work.

That's why it's notable his instincts and understanding are often so wrong.

 

[Takeru]

He's worked as a producer director on shows like Chuck and Resident Alien and often makes observations from that perspective.

It's not just a bit of directing work.

That's why it's notable his instincts and understanding are often so wrong.

He's an actor, director and producer, not a writer. So storytelling at a writing level is not his job. Unlike movie directors TV directors don't do rewrites and his producing role on the shows he worked might not have been creative, there are many other things producers do.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

He's an actor, director and producer, not a writer. So storytelling at a writing level is not his job. Unlike movie directors TV directors don't do rewrites and his producing role on the shows he worked might not have been creative, there are many other things producers do.

As an executive producer and (especially as a supervising producer on Chuck), he would have met with writers and directors, determined what resources were need for stories from the scripts, demanded script changes, examined scripts for their consistency from episode to episode. The fact that he was not a writer is immaterial. He was, and is, in the thick of things.

 

[Takeru]

As an executive producer and (especially as a supervising producer on Chuck), he would have met with writers and directors, determined what resources were need for stories from the scripts, demanded script changes, examined scripts for their consistency from episode to episode. The fact that he was not a writer is immaterial. He was, and is, in the thick of things.

If he was a creative producer, sure. But we don't know that, he could have worked in logistics. MHiring crew, managing the budget and schedules, securing locations, getting permits etc.
It's a misconception that every producer (supervising, executive or otherwise) meets with writers and demands script changes. Those are specific jobs that only some producers do.

 

[VDCNI]

He's an actor, director and producer, not a writer. So storytelling at a writing level is not his job. Unlike movie directors TV directors don't do rewrites and his producing role on the shows he worked might not have been creative, there are many other things producers do.

Except he talks about his creative involvement in those shows on the podcast and either way what he does is more than a 'bit of directing' as was the original comment.

 

[Sakonna]

In my experience, @Takeru has it right. The producers that rose to that title via the directing path are almost always focused on the many aspects of implementation, and not the writing.

That's not to say they never express creative opinions on the script (and implementation discussions can certainly be creative, like his points in "To The Death" about action blocking needing to also convey story). But as far as the script goes, it doesn't really take the form of approving what is scripted or demanding particular changes. It's more about just flagging something that's not working (or highlighting something that's working particularly well). Trusted fresh eyes to help the writers get out of their heads. Actually determining if a script change is needed, and if so how to do it, is typically then the province of the writers.

Which I think really tracks with his episode responses. Robbie has an excellent eye for spotting the weak points and articulating why they are weak, but his proposed fixes are usually not great. Because the former is probably a muscle he's had to work a lot in his job over the decades, and the latter not nearly as much.

Which, now that I think about it, might also describe every director producer I ever worked with in TV. If they pitch a script fix, it's the bad idea that gets you to the good idea, not what is actually implemented in the next rewrite.

Now, on to "Body Parts" -- was I surprised by their reaction to this one! I am someone who loves "Family Business" and finds "Body Parts" off-putting and gross and unsettling.

Since all of them - including Armin! - hated (or at least disliked) "Family Business", I was braced for an even more intense hatred of "Body Parts", and instead it's everyone's favorite in a long time!

But I thought all their viewpoints were quite well articulated, and I'm kind of excited to rewatch this one now and see if my opinion of it bumps up some. (I've fallen a few behind on my rewatch, gotta catch up)

 

[Crewman6]

When they watched Voyager they weren't just watching a tv show, they remembered parts of their lifes. The Ireland episode might have been trash but they probably remembered how fun it was to get out the studio and film outdoors for a few days.
And even average episodes where they might not remember the specifics of a scene in a hallway, they remember those sets, the actors and the time spend on those stages. The entire podcast was a walk down memory lane when it was about Voyager, when it became about DS9 they started watching a show they had no personal connection to at all outside if the one scene in Quark's in the Voyager pilot.
It doesn't surprise me me at all that they rated Voyager episodes higher on average.

Of course they can't be objective about their own show. They just can't be.

And, in their defense, they often bag on Voyager. They often marvel at the fact that Deep Space Nine has such a deep bench of recurring players and that they actually have serialized storytelling.

By contrast, they joke that not only did Voyager not have any kind or serialization, they admit that Voyager didn't even have consistency. At one point, they commented that their characters might have a certain opinion one week, only to have a completely different opinion the same subject a couple weeks later.

So, as much as I criticize those two, they are at least deeply aware of some of Voyager's shortcomings and DS9's relative strengths.

 

[Crewman6]

In my experience, @Takeru has it right. The producers that rose to that title via the directing path are almost always focused on the many aspects of implementation, and not the writing.

That's not to say they never express creative opinions on the script (and implementation discussions can certainly be creative, like his points in "To The Death" about action blocking needing to also convey story). But as far as the script goes, it doesn't really take the form of approving what is scripted or demanding particular changes. It's more about just flagging something that's not working (or highlighting something that's working particularly well). Trusted fresh eyes to help the writers get out of their heads. Actually determining if a script change is needed, and if so how to do it, is typically then the province of the writers.

Which I think really tracks with his episode responses. Robbie has an excellent eye for spotting the weak points and articulating why they are weak, but his proposed fixes are usually not great. Because the former is probably a muscle he's had to work a lot in his job over the decades, and the latter not nearly as much.

Which, now that I think about it, might also describe every director producer I ever worked with in TV. If they pitch a script fix, it's the bad idea that gets you to the good idea, not what is actually implemented in the next rewrite.

Now, on to "Body Parts" -- was I surprised by their reaction to this one! I am someone who loves "Family Business" and finds "Body Parts" off-putting and gross and unsettling.

Since all of them - including Armin! - hated (or at least disliked) "Family Business", I was braced for an even more intense hatred of "Body Parts", and instead it's everyone's favorite in a long time!

But I thought all their viewpoints were quite well articulated, and I'm kind of excited to rewatch this one now and see if my opinion of it bumps up some. (I've fallen a few behind on my rewatch, gotta catch up)

I liked Body Parts well enough, but I literally only ever saw it once, during its original airing.

I thought "Family Business" was....just okay. But, in retrospect, it was easily the best Moogie-centric episode of the series and one of the better overall Ferengi episodes (which can be a very low bar indeed at times.)

I was genuinely surprised by how much Robbie liked this episode, though. It's perfectly nice and their recap actually did make me want to check it out again after all these years.

Robbie is nothing if not inconsistent/surprising in his opinions. It's not shocking Armin liked this episode a lot, but, as we've discussed, Robbie is sometimes wildly overly critical for no reason. Armin is deeply pedantic. And who really cares with Garrett thinks?

 

[VDCNI]

Which I think really tracks with his episode responses. Robbie has an excellent eye for spotting the weak points and articulating why they are weak, but his proposed fixes are usually not great. Because the former is probably a muscle he's had to work a lot in his job over the decades, and the latter not nearly as much.

Except what you and everyone else pontificating about his experience missed is that I said LATELY his instincts have abandoned him.

Previously I would have said he was the best of the lot at articulating issues with the episodes but he completely missed the point of To The Death and didn't make any clear points about why he disliked The Quickening other than some vague mumbles about the time jumps.

Also lately he's found many moments of clear dialogue confusing. He was never fully consistent but lately he's been Garrett levels of understanding.

 

[Sakonna]

Except what you and everyone else pontificating about his experience missed is that I said LATELY his instincts have abandoned him.

I'm not talking about anything related to timeline at all. I was addressing factual misunderstandings about what it means to be a producer at Robbie's level.