The Delta Flyers now covering DS9

[VDCNI]

Well I finished it and the latter part is less stupid but still bad.

Them still going on about making the aliens look more alien without even thinking for a second why it's key for them to look human and then Robbie wanting a comedy b-story about Quarks advertising in this of all episodes was painful.

Robbie's only real complaint seemed to be about the time jumps which ok aren't always the clearest but aren't particularly confusing either and are the only way to tell this story in the time they have.

To be fair to Armin, though he would have likely been pedantic, how come Bashir is allowed off the station for so long, I think he is more likely to appreciate the quality of this episode.

 

[Crewman6]

To be fair to Armin, though he would have likely been pedantic, how come Bashir is allowed off the station for so long, I think he is more likely to appreciate the quality of this episode.

Armin would have spent 40 minutes complaining that both Bashir and Kira should never, ever have left the station at all, let alone for over a week's time.

 

[Poltargyst]

I can't imagine how he made it through 7 seasons of Voyager. If he were consistent, he'd have to rate 90% of the episodes of that show as a 3 or lower.

I know I do.

 

[Crewman6]

I know I do.

Don't we all?

 

[ananta]

Ok, this episode gave me my new signature!

Theory: RDM is acting like Berman. His experience of Star Trek is Berman hanging over his shoulder, so he thinks he needs to act just like Berman.

Love the signature. My favourite Terry quote was from another episode. Garrett was making some ludicrous nitpick about something, and she told him “You just stay in your Voyager lane!” I do love Terry. She says it in a funny and inoffensive way too. I managed to forgive her for her (and Robbie’s) confusion over Kira leaving them on the planet and hiding in the nebula for a week. That plot point was clearly explained and anyone who was listening should have got it.

Regarding Robbie, I think there’s some ego at play and it’s just become more and more clear to me as the weeks have passed. He’s a producer now and I think he sees himself as this skilled storyteller—when, in fact, based on many of his comments, criticisms and suggestions, I frankly don’t think he has a decent instinct for story whatsoever. Based on some his comments on this podcast, I’d keep him far away from any writers’ room.

Could it be that he maybe sees himself above Star Trek and above the DS9 writers, producers and directors? I get when you’re reviewing something you’re going to find things to criticise. But he’s going way overboard. It many cases it’s not being done lovingly or affectionately; it’s like he’s going out of his way to pull things apart. This episode was just the nadir for me. His criticisms were so overboard and weak I can only conclude he’s being deliberately harsh either because he doesn’t like the show or sees himself as above it.

Also couldn’t believe there was was a question about why DS9 didn’t have more humour and Robbie said the writers clearly don’t have an aptitude or ability to write humour. What?! This is DS9. It has more comedy episodes than any other Trek, and at least in my opinion, it’s better at comedy than any other incarnation of Trek. What is he talking about?

I had the same thought about Voyager. Given his often deeply unfair negativity, I can't imagine how he made it through 7 seasons of Voyager. If he were consistent, he'd have to rate 90% of the episodes of that show as a 3 or lower.

That’s just it. I don’t really like Voyager so no way I’d listen to their Voyager reviews, but I did a little digging and found a list of Robbie and Garrett’s episode ratings for Voyager. Both of them rated Voyager episodes much, MUCH higher than the average DS9 episode. As mentioned before, Robbie rated those trash Irish holodeck episodes 8.5 apparently, and Garrett a 9!

Obviously they’ll naturally have fondness for their own show, but there’s no objectivity there. Their opinions mean nothing to me now. I wish they could just hand the podcast over to Terry and Armin. I’d definitely keep listening to them, in spite of Armin’s critical excesses himself.

Well I finished it and the latter part is less stupid but still bad.

Them still going on about making the aliens look more alien without even thinking for a second why it's key for them to look human and then Robbie wanting a comedy b-story about Quarks advertising in this of all episodes was painful.

Robbie's only real complaint seemed to be about the time jumps which ok aren't always the clearest but aren't particularly confusing either and are the only way to tell this story in the time they have.

To be fair to Armin, though he would have likely been pedantic, how come Bashir is allowed off the station for so long, I think he is more likely to appreciate the quality of this episode.

The nitpicks on this episode were just utterly stupid at points. Actually complaining that the aliens should have been GREEN or have a wrinkle on their nose or whatever, and failing to discuss the fascinating deeper aspects of the plot, such as euthanasia (love the way the character of Trevean was elegantly handled and not completely vilified) and the fact we actually get to see how utterly evil the Dominion is—it’s one thing telling us the bad guys are bad, but we get to see in painful, vivid detail here and it makes for one of the most harrowing episodes of Trek ever made. I gave up on the last hour of the podcast because I was just so annoyed, so maybe the discussion got better, I don’t know,

I personally liked the fact the episode was set over several weeks and didn’t have an issue with the time jumps. For me it’s a solid 9 at minimum. It’s just incredibly rich, engaging and emotionally devastating. If RDM and GW don’t see the quality of an episode like this, I can totally see them just nitpicking over upcoming classics like “Far Beyond the Stars” and “In the Pale Moonlight” and rating each 6.3 or whatever.

I won’t be here for it though, so they can knock themselves out.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Regarding Robbie, I think there’s some ego at play and it’s just become more and more clear to me as the weeks have passed. He’s a producer now and I think he sees himself as this skilled storyteller—when, in fact, based on many of his comments, criticisms and suggestions, I frankly don’t think he has a decent instinct for story whatsoever. Based on some his comments on this podcast, I’d keep him far away from any writers’ room.

Could it be that he maybe sees himself above Star Trek and above the DS9 writers, producers and directors? I get when you’re reviewing something you’re going to find things to criticise. But he’s going way overboard. It many cases it’s not being done lovingly or affectionately; it’s like he’s going out of his way to pull things apart. This episode was just the nadir for me. His criticisms were so overboard and weak I can only conclude he’s being deliberately harsh either because he doesn’t like the show or sees himself as above it.

Also couldn’t believe there was was a question about why DS9 didn’t have more humour and Robbie said the writers clearly don’t have an aptitude or ability to write humour. What?! This is DS9. It has more comedy episodes than any other Trek, and at least in my opinion, it’s better at comedy than any other incarnation of Trek. What is he talking about?

I certainly agree with all these things, but I had something more specific in mind. Rick Berman had a way of giving notes that was ornery. Of course, he famously aped Roddenberry , or what he thought Roddenberry would say, about scripts and dailies. Moore and Echevaria have said that it would go deeper than that, down to specific choices in scenes and words. They found it infuriating. From what I can tell, directors might expect similar scrutiny from the showrunner. Behr has said that Brooks was always calling him about the episodes he directed. That was unusual. However, there were plenty of meetings for directors and showrunners, so called tone meetings. Perhaps the most famous example from Way of the Warrior, where Jeff Connelly stopped Shimerman and Robinson in the root beer scene to tell them Behr and Wolfe has told him very different things about the scene. I believe Behr was the guy who did that on DS9, but it took years to wrest that away from Berman. Indeed, Behr didn't get the right to see edited cuts until the end of year 6, which Berman conditioned on not showing them to the other writers (which Behr did anyway). No one on Voyager spent years taking control of the show. Jeri Taylor was ceding control in year 3. The showrunner seat was a game of musical chairs.

What if every director had to deal directly with Berman? What if McNeill, for all his episodes, took notes from Berman, after it was Berman who sent him through Star Trek directing school. I'm wondering whether McNeill absorbed something of Berman's attitude about producing, either specifically when applied to Star Trek or in general. Does McNeill feel (perhaps unconsciously) he needs to be the voice of Gene in the room?

 

[Takeru]

That’s just it. I don’t really like Voyager so no way I’d listen to their Voyager reviews, but I did a little digging and found a list of Robbie and Garrett’s episode ratings for Voyager. Both of them rated Voyager episodes much, MUCH higher than the average DS9 episode. As mentioned before, Robbie rated those trash Irish holodeck episodes 8.5 apparently, and Garrett a 9!

Obviously they’ll naturally have fondness for their own show, but there’s no objectivity there. Their opinions mean nothing to me now.

When they watched Voyager they weren't just watching a tv show, they remembered parts of their lifes. The Ireland episode might have been trash but they probably remembered how fun it was to get out the studio and film outdoors for a few days.
And even average episodes where they might not remember the specifics of a scene in a hallway, they remember those sets, the actors and the time spend on those stages. The entire podcast was a walk down memory lane when it was about Voyager, when it became about DS9 they started watching a show they had no personal connection to at all outside if the one scene in Quark's in the Voyager pilot.
It doesn't surprise me me at all that they rated Voyager episodes higher on average.

 

[ananta]

I certainly agree with all these things, but I had something more specific in mind. Rick Berman had a way of giving notes that was ornery. Of course, he famously aped Roddenberry , or what he thought Roddenberry would say, about scripts and dailies. Moore and Echevaria have said that it would go deeper than that, down to specific choices in scenes and words. They found it infuriating. From what I can tell, directors might expect similar scrutiny from the showrunner. Behr has said that Brooks was always calling him about the episodes he directed. That was unusual. However, there were plenty of meetings for directors and showrunners, so called tone meetings. Perhaps the most famous example from Way of the Warrior, where Jeff Connelly stopped Shimerman and Robinson in the root beer scene to tell them Behr and Wolfe has told him very different things about the scene. I believe Behr was the guy who did that on DS9, but it took years to wrest that away from Berman. Indeed, Behr didn't get the right to see edited cuts until the end of year 6, which Berman conditioned on not showing them to the other writers (which Behr did anyway). No one on Voyager spent years taking control of the show. Jeri Taylor was ceding control in year 3. The showrunner seat was a game of musical chairs.

What if every director had to deal directly with Berman? What if McNeill, for all his episodes, took notes from Berman, after it was Berman who sent him through Star Trek directing school. I'm wondering whether McNeill absorbed something of Berman's attitude about producing, either specifically when applied to Star Trek or in general. Does McNeill feel (perhaps unconsciously) he needs to be the voice of Gene in the room?

Ah, I get what you mean. That could well be part of the reason for his antipathy. Berman definitely had a rigid and overpowering sense of what Trek is and isn’t…and it’s no secret he didn’t have all that much love for DS9, in spite of being its co-creator.

When they watched Voyager they weren't just watching a tv show, they remembered parts of their lifes. The Ireland episode might have been trash but they probably remembered how fun it was to get out the studio and film outdoors for a few days.
And even average episodes where they might not remember the specifics of a scene in a hallway, they remember those sets, the actors and the time spend on those stages. The entire podcast was a walk down memory lane when it was about Voyager, when it became about DS9 they started watching a show they had no personal connection to at all outside if the one scene in Quark's in the Voyager pilot.
It doesn't surprise me me at all that they rated Voyager episodes higher on average.

That makes sense and is natural, of course. But when comparing the ratings and how they’re holding DS9 to a MUCH higher critical standard, that just loses me. While obviously opinions vary, I frankly wouldn’t trust the opinion of somebody who genuinely believes that the quality of writing, acting, production, continuity and overall consistency of DS9 was inferior to Voyager. They are simply worlds apart in terms of quality. RDM and GW are basically selling a product, and radically adjusting their critical standards just because they weren’t in the show does not sit well with me whatsoever.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Ah, I get what you mean. That could well be part of the reason for his antipathy. Berman definitely had a rigid and overpowering sense of what Trek is and isn’t…and it’s no secret he didn’t have all that much love for DS9, in spite of being its co-creator.

I think his tone has changed about the series. He ended up having less creative input than the other series, and I am sure that there are specific things that irked him. I love the story how in a meeting with Behr, he looked outside the building over at the Hart Building, where the writers were, and saw all the DS9 writers hanging out, dressed like Behr with some form of goatee or facial hair, and said, "Your people!" He had many personal frustrations not having the control of the show the way he had over the others, and he probably had all his authority filtered trough Behr. However, I think he is proud of DS9. It's rather easy to hate on him, especially as Niners, especially since all the DS9 writers have been the most critical of Berman. The Farrell thing was terribly, but I would not say it was outside the bounds of Hollywood. And arguably, he set standards that helped the franchise.