Star Trek Nemesis (Rant)

[PhoenixIreland]

It was not as bad as insurrection but I have some problems with it:

1. The notion of a Picard clone being in charge of the Romulan empire was a very stupid story they could have done so much better, now I'm a firm beleiver in not complaining about something without sugesting something I think would be better so.... a movie with the Enterprise E and the Dominion somehow involved would have been far better since we never go to see the two interact. Maybe the E, Voyager under Captian Chakotay and the Defiant under Vaughn (im sure they could get an actor to play him) go through the wormhole to investigate why the dominion has suddenly gone quiet (or like in the relaunch books why the jemhadar strike the station and instead the taskforce of ships, made of those three, goes to the Gamma Quadrant to investigate) and it turns out theres been a coup there maybe by that angry changeling (Nos?) from DS9, have some battles with the jemhadar and eventually they get Odo and the rest back to their rightful place.

2. Why no refrence to Sela or Spock???? It would have made more sense for HER to launch the coup.

3. Don't kill Data, kill Troi

 

[Broccoli]

1. The notion of a Picard clone being in charge of the Romulan empire was a very stupid story they could have done so much better, now I'm a firm beleiver in not complaining about something without sugesting something I think would be better so.... a movie with the Enterprise E and the Dominion somehow involved would have been far better since we never go to see the two interact. Maybe the E, Voyager under Captian Chakotay and the Defiant under Vaughn (im sure they could get an actor to play him) go through the wormhole to investigate why the dominion has suddenly gone quiet (or like in the relaunch books why the jemhadar strike the station and instead the taskforce of ships, made of those three, goes to the Gamma Quadrant to investigate) and it turns out theres been a coup there maybe by that angry changeling (Nos?) from DS9, have some battles with the jemhadar and eventually they get Odo and the rest back to their rightful place.

Yes...that is a much better idea...

2. Why no refrence to Sela or Spock???? It would have made more sense for HER to launch the coup.

Perhaps not needed? Although, I think Sela would have been a good addition instead of Donatra (not that she was bad, but Sela would have been better, imo).

3. Don't kill Data, kill Troi

Sure...that makes sense...

 

[PhoenixIreland]

1. The notion of a Picard clone being in charge of the Romulan empire was a very stupid story they could have done so much better, now I'm a firm beleiver in not complaining about something without sugesting something I think would be better so.... a movie with the Enterprise E and the Dominion somehow involved would have been far better since we never go to see the two interact. Maybe the E, Voyager under Captian Chakotay and the Defiant under Vaughn (im sure they could get an actor to play him) go through the wormhole to investigate why the dominion has suddenly gone quiet (or like in the relaunch books why the jemhadar strike the station and instead the taskforce of ships, made of those three, goes to the Gamma Quadrant to investigate) and it turns out theres been a coup there maybe by that angry changeling (Nos?) from DS9, have some battles with the jemhadar and eventually they get Odo and the rest back to their rightful place.

Yes...that is a much better idea...

Would you care to say why not, rather than rolling your eyes?

Perhaps not needed? Although, I think Sela would have been a good addition instead of Donatra (not that she was bad, but Sela would have been better, imo).

She was an already introduced character with a devious history, it would have worked better in Donatra or Shinzons role, that is, if you insist on the stupid story to begin with.

3. Don't kill Data, kill Troi

Sure...that makes sense

It does actaully, according to AGT she was going to die anyway.
The reason for killing Data off (age) was not nessicary since he suppsosidly had an agining programme anyay, Troi was also more annoying, and more unnessicary.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Would you care to say why not, rather than rolling your eyes?

Perhaps because it wreaks of fan-boyism?

She was an already introduced character with a devious history, it would have worked better in Donatra or Shinzons role, that is, if you insist on the stupid story to begin with.

Well, with Donatra a "devious history" is incongruent with the character, and Shinzon (at least in concept) was the one thing that worked in the film. It was everything else that was the problem.

 

[Grant]

How come fanboys can't recognize when their ideas stink to hell of fanboyism??

I start to think, 'Oh they could have done this & this...' & then i realize what fanboy junk it is sounding like.

Also funny is when they want you to criticaloly break down what is wrong with their fanboy story--as if it's a legit & original script outline.
It's just a rehash of something else with fanboy elements throw in. We're not wasting our time telling you every detail of how it stinks.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

So your just a smartass?

That was actually the plot outline of the DS9 relaunch with a few detailes changed. Such as the coup, which was, afterall, the plot of Nemesis.

The Dominion were one of the few decent enemies we ever saw on the show, and the Romulans were easily among the most bland, flat and uninteresting.
The Taskforce would have also been a nice way of getting VOY and DS9 into a movie that they would not pull in enough people for on their own.

Would you care to say why not, rather than rolling your eyes?

Perhaps because it wreaks of fan-boyism?

She was an already introduced character with a devious history, it would have worked better in Donatra or Shinzons role, that is, if you insist on the stupid story to begin with.

Well, with Donatra a "devious history" is incongruent with the character, and Shinzon (at least in concept) was the one thing that worked in the film. It was everything else that was the problem.

Shinzon was the only element that worked? are you serious?????
It would have been a PASSABLE movie if they had a decent villan.

but a Picard clone, who looks nothing like Picard, launching a coup on Romulas, supported by romulans....no...just no.

I actually don't know how they came up with such a convolouted and ridiciouls story to begin with.

I'm glad the actors realized it too.

 

[Grant]

Oh, so that was the plot of the DS9 relaunch and you've merged it into the Nemesis plot & it is your idea of a better movie?

Books, novels, fan-fiction and what is really turned into actual multi-million dollar movies are different.

The fact that so many people sit there and try and figure how they could have done a better job of making a movie that came out 5 years ago is amazing.

People really sit around and think they could have done better. Get an agent, write a script, see how easy it is.

we all think we could do better after seeing a bad movie or bad episode, but don't sit around rewrinting an existing movie.
I know people do it. I've even thought of how a few elements would have made for a better movie, but posting it here is inviting critics to evaluate it.
It sounds fan-boyish to me. just my lone opinion.

 

[CorporalClegg]

^
I did say "in concept," did I not?

This, of course, in reference to the nurture vs. nature backbone of the story that was the centerpiece of all the half-decent scenes in the movie--including the omitted Picard/Data scene.

Had it been molded and fleshed-out by a decent writer and director, it could have made for a decent morality play--it's unoriginal banality not withstanding.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

Oh, so that was the plot of the DS9 relaunch and you've merged it into the Nemesis plot & it is your idea of a better movie?

The point was you accused it of being hair brained "fanboyism" but it was in fact not.

Books, novels, .....what is really turned into actual multi-million dollar movies are different.

I think the authers of..Jurassic Park, Twister, Congo, Disclosure, Fight Club,, Angelas Ashes etc would say otherwise

The fact that so many people sit there and try and figure how they could have done a better job of making a movie that came out 5 years ago is amazing.

I tend not to complain about something without sugesting an alternative.

People really sit around and think they could have done better. Get an agent, write a script, see how easy it is.

Did anyone say it was easy? No, but there have been tonnes of bad movies made in spite of tje diffuclt vetting process, this was one of them.

Not because of it's execution (as was the case with many other movies) but the entire concept was moronic to begin with, a story like this should have been thrown out after one discussion.

 

[Broccoli]

Would you care to say why not, rather than rolling your eyes?

While I thought the eyeroll said enough, sure, I can go into detail.

Where to begin. For one, there is absolutely NO NEED for the Dominion to appear in a TNG film. None, whatsoever. Main reason is two-fold. They were DS9's main baddies and even if DS9 was already off the air, there was an intentional (and smart) direction to keep the 24th Century shows separate (with the occasional off-handed reference to each other).

For two, the backstory that DS9 has with the Dominion would be insane for a general audience member to know about. That is mainly why, creatively speaking, there will never be a DS9 movie.

Also, including characters from all over, in what appears to be at the very least strong supporting roles, would be a franchise killing move in addition to fanwankery. A cameo (like Janeway's) is fine, but beyond that would be ridiculous and overcrowd the movie. Also, DS9 and Voyager were never as popular as TNG (another reason why those series will never see a film). Having a movie that focuses on them in addition to the TNG crew would be silly as a general audience member would probably want to watch Picard and Co instead of these other yahoos.

Then there are the logistical impossibilities of such a move. Robert Beltran, for example, would NEVER return to Trek due to his absolute loathing of Berman and Co.

Sure...that makes sense

It does actaully, according to AGT she was going to die anyway.
The reason for killing Data off (age) was not nessicary since he suppsosidly had an agining programme anyay, Troi was also more annoying, and more unnessicary.

Well, you can forget about the AGT future as that was automatically erased once Picard came back and told everyone what was going to happen to them. Afterall, we also saw in that future the E-D still being around, Picard and Beverly married, and Riker and Worf at each other's throats. Much of that stuff was never going to pass. The only thing that did survive was the Klingon ship and the uniforms.

And, also keep in mind that Brent Spiner wanted Data to be killed for the the previous film, but was denied. He wanted to move on from the role and felt that Data's death not only would do that, but also give Data the ultimate chance to experience humanity (sacrificing himself for his friends).
Whether you feel it worked or not is up to you, of course.

Oh, so that was the plot of the DS9 relaunch and you've merged it into the Nemesis plot & it is your idea of a better movie?

The point was you accused it of being hair brained "fanboyism" but it was in fact not.

Actually, that was CorporalClegg that pointed it out, not Grant.

Books, novels, .....what is really turned into actual multi-million dollar movies are different.

I think the authers of..Jurassic Park, Twister, Congo, Disclosure, Fight Club,, Angelas Ashes etc would say otherwise

And just how close are those novels to the movies that they inspired? Also, that argument doesn't even work as those novels were made before the movie was produced while the DS9-relaunch was created after the DS9 series was made. When there are media tie-ins, generally, they are allowed to use any characters/settings/events that they want because they have no budget to worry about. A movie is a different animal because of that.

 

[Mr. Fergy]

I hate to say it, but years latter: Nemesis is a badly written glorified TNG episode, IMHO.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Also, I'd like to submit to the court that most novels are by definition fanboyish.

I have yet to read one that isn't.

 

[Broccoli]

Also, I'd like to submit to the court that most novels are by definition fanboyish.

While I do enjoy some of the Trek novels that I have read, I tend to agree with this statement (especially with the more-recent novels).

 

[Natural]

It was not as bad as insurrection but I have some problems with

I stopped reading here. It was worse than Insurrection x 10. It's just horrible in every way. You can't fix it.

 

[JRobertson]

It was worse than Insurrection x 10. It's just horrible in every way. You can't fix it.

Hmmm, tough competition, then there's The Final Frontier.

Let's face it, the films have been very disappointing given all the time & money spent on them, by my count you have Khan, Voyage Home, and First Contact as being worthy of the top TV episodes, a few others in the middle, and several that aren't much better than Spock's Brain.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Let's face it, the films have been very disappointing given all the time & money spent on them, by my count you have Khan, Voyage Home, and First Contact as being almost worthy of the top TV episodes, a few others in the middle, and several that aren't much better than Spock's Brain.

Fixed. Otherwise, spot on.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

Where to begin. For one, there is absolutely NO NEED for the Dominion to appear in a TNG film. None, whatsoever.

I can think of several reasons

1. They are the best enemy ST has ever had
2. The idea that the flagship never had contact with them is a bit silly
3. They were explored in far more depth than the flat uninteresting and boring romulans, an enemy born more out of a low makeup budget than good ideas.

For two, the backstory that DS9 has with the Dominion would be insane for a general audience member to know about. That is mainly why, creatively speaking, there will never be a DS9 movie.

A Caretaker like intro with a few lines of introduction would have explained the backstory easily if you insist, bizzarly, that a star trek fan would not know where the dominion cam from..it's not exactly a complex story, but it's a far more interesting one than ALL romulan stories combined.

Also, including characters from all over, in what appears to be at the very least strong supporting roles, would be a franchise killing move in addition to fanwankery.

Did I say every Voy, DS9 and TNG character would even be in it?
DS9 would simply have been passed as they went through the wormhole or have the likes of Kira/Sisko in a breif "good luck" transmission as they id so ala Janeways Nemesis camio.
Only a tiny number of the DS9 crew are left to be on the defiant and same for voyager, the focus in any case being kept on the Ent with the other two in supporting mode only.
Not to mention I think Nemeis itself was a franchise killing move..

Also, DS9 and Voyager were never as popular as TNG (another reason why those series will never see a film). Having a movie that focuses on them in addition to the TNG crew would be silly as a general audience member would probably want to watch Picard and Co instead of these other yahoos.

I never said the focus would not be on the Ent, any more than Sulu and the excelsior being TUC overcrowded it

Then there are the logistical impossibilities of such a move. Robert Beltran, for example, would NEVER return to Trek due to his absolute loathing of Berman and Co.

Who says he has to be in command? the novels are not cannon nobody has to follow them, can stick anyone we want in charge, espechally since the focus in on the Ent.

Well, you can forget about the AGT future as that was automatically erased once Picard came back and told everyone what was going to happen to them.

We never heard how Deanna died, and neither did Picard, whos to say it wasn't "destiny", if you beleive in that sort of thing.

And just how close are those novels to the movies that they inspired? Also, that argument doesn't even work as those novels were made before the movie was produced while the DS9-relaunch was created after the DS9 series was made.

....and BEFORE any movie that LOOSELY borrows some ideas from such a novel...

As for Novels in general, some are garbage and some are fantastic particulary because they are free from budget constraints of on screen antics

 

[CorporalClegg]

1. They are the best enemy ST has ever had

It's a bad idea to post an opinion as fact--especially one that would otherwise be considered a non sequitur by many.

It's hard to take the rest of the post seriously.

Just a piece of friendly advice.

 

[Broccoli]

Where to begin. For one, there is absolutely NO NEED for the Dominion to appear in a TNG film. None, whatsoever.

I can think of several reasons

1. They are the best enemy ST has ever had
2. The idea that the flagship never had contact with them is a bit silly
3. They were explored in far more depth than the flat uninteresting and boring romulans, an enemy born more out of a low makeup budget than good ideas.

While they were a good enemy, they were NOT a TNG enemy. Having them pair a Dominion enemy against Picard wouldn't work in a TNG movie, regardless if it would have worked in-universe. Novels, yeah, it could as novels appeal directly to the Star Trek fan, as opposed to a movie which is geared towards a Trek fan AND a general movie goer.

For two, the backstory that DS9 has with the Dominion would be insane for a general audience member to know about. That is mainly why, creatively speaking, there will never be a DS9 movie.

A Caretaker like intro with a few lines of introduction would have explained the backstory easily if you insist, bizzarly, that a star trek fan would not know where the dominion cam from..it's not exactly a complex story, but it's a far more interesting one than ALL romulan stories combined.

Yes, a STAR TREK FAN would know this, but as my quote said, a GENERAL AUDIENCE MEMBER wouldn't and it would be confusing to them. Making a Trek movie to appeal just to Trek fans is a big mistake. It would probably bomb worse than Nemesis, imo.

Did I say every Voy, DS9 and TNG character would even be in it?
DS9 would simply have been passed as they went through the wormhole or have the likes of Kira/Sisko in a breif "good luck" transmission as they id so ala Janeways Nemesis camio.
Only a tiny number of the DS9 crew are left to be on the defiant and same for voyager, the focus in any case being kept on the Ent with the other two in supporting mode only.

No and I never said you did. A cameo the way Janeway's was would be fine. However, going overkill on the cameos would be a mistake. Crossing-over too much I still think would be a mistake.

Not to mention I think Nemeis itself was a franchise killing move..

As would your idea as myself and others have tried to point out.

I never said the focus would not be on the Ent, any more than Sulu and the excelsior being TUC overcrowded it

And I never said it wouldn't. However, as mentioned above, you can go overkill on the cameos.

Who says he has to be in command? the novels are not cannon nobody has to follow them, can stick anyone we want in charge, espechally since the focus in on the Ent.

You brought him up. I was commenting on that. And I would doubt you could just stick anyone in charge and have it make sense (Harry Kim, for example...damn fast promotion!).

Well, you can forget about the AGT future as that was automatically erased once Picard came back and told everyone what was going to happen to them.

We never heard how Deanna died, and neither did Picard, whos to say it wasn't "destiny", if you beleive in that sort of thing.

Uh...I'm pretty sure that Picard retained his memories from the future. And even if he didn't, it was never specifically stated either way. Plus, if the future was suppose to be destiny, how come the Ent-D was destroyed a few months after AGT? Sorry, Alt-Future reasoning doesn't work.

And just how close are those novels to the movies that they inspired? Also, that argument doesn't even work as those novels were made before the movie was produced while the DS9-relaunch was created after the DS9 series was made.

....and BEFORE any movie that LOOSELY borrows some ideas from such a novel...

I don't know what you mean here.

 

[trash80]

How would the Dominion be confusing to a general non-fan audience but the Romulans arn't? Its quite easy to set a story up and establish the bad guys, they are always the guys who look evil but can't shoot straight.