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Because the Rommies have a parking spot in pop culture lore. The Dominion doesn't.
Because the Rommies have a parking spot in pop culture lore. The Dominion doesn't.
Star Trek Nemesis (Rant)
- Thread starter PhoenixIreland
- Start date
It's a bad idea to post an opinion as fact--especially one that would otherwise be considered a non sequitur by many..
If you lack the ability to distinguish opinion from fact then you shouldn't be posting here at all, it's a fairly basic distinction.
The Borg were a close rival but still not as good, the rest were not within pissing distance.
I admit I'm not as hardcore a fan as some but even I realize that they are all in one ST universe and when your talking "in show" there are no "TNG" or "DS9" enemies, there are Federation enemies.
Like I said the backstory is told in 4 lines ala the start of Caretaker, for those who don't know, it's not complex.
People are not the idiots you seem to take them for they are not going to sit in their seats "Im so confused...on a point of order these are DS9 enemies...I'm so confused!"
Which I was not sugesting doing.
The point is killing her off was never a crazy idea, and she was a far less liked character. As for his memories, he never heard in his jumps how Deanna died, how do you know he rememberd? In any case the Troi point was a throwaway about who I'd rather see killed, not integral to my point.
The novel written before the movie in both cases, and the movie in this case not being based on a novel but borrowing some ideas from it.
Yes Im sure the general person is intimitly aware of the various players in the Romulan Senate, how the Remans differ etc
It would be easy to set the scene for those who don't know, and you'd have a much better enemy, the Romulans are bland, uninteresting and don't even look like aliens.
I think the Dominion COULD have worked for a TNG movie actually. All the general audience would need to know is that they are the scary looking bad alien "Empire" intent on taking over the Federation. If the movie was made well, the principle Dominion villains and actors playing them would hopefully be acted and written in a compelling manner that would hold the general audience's attention. Surely they couldn't have been as bad as what we got for the villains in Inserrection and Nemesis? I don't care too much either way though. I just really wish the Romulans HAD actually been the villains in Nemesis instead of the Picard clone and Remans, which frankly I thought were ridiculous.
True, but, from a movie-making standpoint, TNG has its own set of rules with its own set of players. Bringing in the main baddie from another series as the main baddie for this series, probably wouldn't happen just because they are from the other series.
I guess I should clarify where I am talking from. I am looking at this from the movie-making standpoint, rather than a creative standpoint (which I surmise you are coming from). And from that movie-making standpoint is why I don't think a Dominion plot would work.
I never meant to suggest that the general movie goer would whine at being lost. Yes, you can have your exposition that the Dominion live on the other side of galaxy connected to the Feds by a wormhole and were engaged in a long war with them. However, the Romulans don't really have the baggage that the Dominion has. Plus, they are probably better known than the Dominion.
Sorry, I inferred by your post that you were.
Well, I don't know. I am just surmising just like you are. But it seemed that Future-Picard was able to function just fine once he jumped, which, to me, logically would suggest that he has his "future-past memories." It is a tricky gray area to be sure.
Anyway, if you are going to kill a character, from a movie-making standpoint, you would probably want to go for someone that would have a stronger connection to the audience. Hence why Data was chosen (that and Brent Spiner had it written in to the script). Killing Troi, as per your example, would seemed tacked on and "so what" as, you suggest, isn't that popular.
The specific members, no probably not, but the race in general, probably.Yes Im sure the general person is intimitly aware of the various players in the Romulan Senate, how the Remans differ etc
It would be easy to set the scene for those who don't know, and you'd have a much better enemy, the Romulans are bland, uninteresting and don't even look like aliens.
And I wouldn't call the Romulans bland and uninteresting. That is very subjective and can even be applied to the Dominion by some.
Now, if it actually was the Romulans as the baddies as TPTB were claiming and not the Remans somehow sneaking in there, we'd might have a different conversation.
"By definition?" What is that supposed to mean? The novels are written by established professional writers who are intimately familiar with the franchise and very respectful of it. You seem to be implying that it's just glorified fan-fiction.
I'd ask you to submit examples, but I doubt very much that you've read a novel published in the last ten years. Most of the recent offerings have been outstanding. Compared to Nemesis, they're literary masterpieces.
As much as people hate it, it was a fun scene. And a very positive, good Star Trek message to the film. I also like the scene in which they fly the small craft through the Scimitar to escape.
I think a lot of fans forget or ignore that Star Trek is and always was about its message more than it was about anything else.
So your just a smartass?
That was actually the plot outline of the DS9 relaunch with a few detailes changed. Such as the coup, which was, afterall, the plot of Nemesis.
The Dominion were one of the few decent enemies we ever saw on the show, and the Romulans were easily among the most bland, flat and uninteresting.
The Taskforce would have also been a nice way of getting VOY and DS9 into a movie that they would not pull in enough people for on their own.
Shinzon was the only element that worked? are you serious?????
It would have been a PASSABLE movie if they had a decent villan.
but a Picard clone, who looks nothing like Picard, launching a coup on Romulas, supported by romulans....no...just no.
I actually don't know how they came up with such a convolouted and ridiciouls story to begin with.
I'm glad the actors realized it too.
Could not disagree with you more, very good movie, way better than that cheesefest Insurrection and choppy Generations
I think if they had replaced Shinzon with a better villan it would have been passable, not the best not the worst, maybe a movie alone the lines of STII, but an already established Romulan villan like Sela would have worked better, just like bringing Kahn in from TOS.
I was saying that in terms of whos the best villan to use in a movie, since we'd already used the Born in FC, then the next best Villan was the Dominion, the Romulans were a very uninsteresting one.
We will have to agree to disagree on weither enemies can cris cross series but I remind you the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Borg spanned all series, so why not the Dominion.
Broccoli I understand what your saying about creative intrest V what will make money, but I think what will make more money has taken over as the sole criteria for many movies, and example is the supposed toning down of Terminator 3 so it would get a lower age cert thus pull in more people thus more money.
Clearly Ideas would be refined as they go through the process, for example every Voy, Ds9, and Tng actor being in a film would be way too convoluted, lack focus and probably cost a fortune in salerys alone, but in the process I'd assume the roles of the Defiant and Voy would be relegated to the scale of the Exc in the TUC,
The taskforce notion was a way of satisfying the wish of many fans to see a Voy or Ds9 movie without making one just about them which would be unviable.
I was saying that in terms of whos the best villan to use in a movie, since we'd already used the Born in FC, then the next best Villan was the Dominion, the Romulans were a very uninsteresting one.
We will have to agree to disagree on weither enemies can cris cross series but I remind you the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Borg spanned all series, so why not the Dominion.
Broccoli I understand what your saying about creative intrest V what will make money, but I think what will make more money has taken over as the sole criteria for many movies, and example is the supposed toning down of Terminator 3 so it would get a lower age cert thus pull in more people thus more money.
Clearly Ideas would be refined as they go through the process, for example every Voy, Ds9, and Tng actor being in a film would be way too convoluted, lack focus and probably cost a fortune in salerys alone, but in the process I'd assume the roles of the Defiant and Voy would be relegated to the scale of the Exc in the TUC,
The taskforce notion was a way of satisfying the wish of many fans to see a Voy or Ds9 movie without making one just about them which would be unviable.
I think I could see two ways in which the basic plot could be beefed up:
1 ) If they wanted to keep Shinzon as a Picard clone then they should ditch the story about him raising himself up from the mines of Reman. Instead, have him fly off with lots of turncoat remans and he starts a base somewhere. He could secretly build his army for some time and get multiple races to join his Fleding Empire. Not like Klingons, and stuff, but all of the little guys that live around Romulus and the area.
They could have thing where Shinzon shows up with the Schimitar, starts charging his lazer, and tells the Romulan Praetors that if they don't hand over the planet to the Shinzon Empire then he'll blast them to bits. The Romulans would agree but of course tons of people would want to assasinate them.
2 ) Get a villian besides Shinzon. You know how Star Trek used to be thinly veiled metaphors about the times of the day? Have an insane Romulan take over Romulus in a coup and have him build the Schimitar -- or maybe even a couple. He wants to rule the galaxy from his seat on Romulus. Make him an equivilent to Jung Ill II, the current dictator of North Korea. They could still keep Data's Death, the awesome Schimitar fight, and they could still have a one-on-one battle with the Romulan at a point. The Federation would go in hoping they could talk the Crazy Romulan from launching a genocidal war, sort of like North Korea and it's missle testing. Actually, that would be good -- have them start with destroying a planet in the neurtal zone that nobody cares about.
1 ) If they wanted to keep Shinzon as a Picard clone then they should ditch the story about him raising himself up from the mines of Reman. Instead, have him fly off with lots of turncoat remans and he starts a base somewhere. He could secretly build his army for some time and get multiple races to join his Fleding Empire. Not like Klingons, and stuff, but all of the little guys that live around Romulus and the area.
They could have thing where Shinzon shows up with the Schimitar, starts charging his lazer, and tells the Romulan Praetors that if they don't hand over the planet to the Shinzon Empire then he'll blast them to bits. The Romulans would agree but of course tons of people would want to assasinate them.
2 ) Get a villian besides Shinzon. You know how Star Trek used to be thinly veiled metaphors about the times of the day? Have an insane Romulan take over Romulus in a coup and have him build the Schimitar -- or maybe even a couple. He wants to rule the galaxy from his seat on Romulus. Make him an equivilent to Jung Ill II, the current dictator of North Korea. They could still keep Data's Death, the awesome Schimitar fight, and they could still have a one-on-one battle with the Romulan at a point. The Federation would go in hoping they could talk the Crazy Romulan from launching a genocidal war, sort of like North Korea and it's missle testing. Actually, that would be good -- have them start with destroying a planet in the neurtal zone that nobody cares about.
I watched it recently and, after having panned this movie over and over on this site, I found it still not as bad as TFF. NEM had some great moments when the characters were written and directed successfully, such as Data's sacrificial death and the response by the crew when they toasted him. Also, the goodbye between Riker and Picard was well done. Even Deana's scenes were pretty good - the mind rape by Shinzon and her assistance to Worf in locating the Scimitar. But, the wedding scene was a mess as was much of the dialogue between Shinzon and Picard. B4 was completely unnecessary as it cheapened Data's death. Far too often, the characters seemed to be written and/or directed by people who didn't know any of the crew's history and relationships. It had potential that was far from lived up to.
I wouldn't have minded a mirror universe story, a Dominion War story, or some other tale that fed off of a successful TNG episode. The last idea worked quite well with the two most successful movies TWoK (Space Seed) and FC (BoBW). In both of those movies, it took only a few lines spoken by Kirk and Picard to get the general audience up to speed on the history that the fans were quite aware of.
I wouldn't have minded a mirror universe story, a Dominion War story, or some other tale that fed off of a successful TNG episode. The last idea worked quite well with the two most successful movies TWoK (Space Seed) and FC (BoBW). In both of those movies, it took only a few lines spoken by Kirk and Picard to get the general audience up to speed on the history that the fans were quite aware of.
I havn't read the magaxine since I was a kid. and I didn't hear any writers commentary on the DVD (before I sold it), did the writers give any explanation where they got such a convolouted idea of Picard clone being in charge of the empire from??
Maybe Attack of the Clones? I don't know... lol!
Funny you mention star wars, some of the scenes in Nemesis reeked of Star Wars campness...
Where to begin. For one, there is absolutely NO NEED for the Dominion to appear in a TNG film. None, whatsoever. Main reason is two-fold. They were DS9's main baddies and even if DS9 was already off the air, there was an intentional (and smart) direction to keep the 24th Century shows separate (with the occasional off-handed reference to each other).
No there wasn't. DS9 took over the Klingon arc and the cardassian arc
For two, the backstory that DS9 has with the Dominion would be insane for a general audience member to know about. That is mainly why, creatively speaking, there will never be a DS9 movie.
Sorta like explaining the backstory of the Sona, or of even Khan for the people who didn't remember him 16 years later. Or explaining the backstory of the remans. Or any Romulan cloning efforts. Insurrection gave enough backstory of the dominion war for TNG only people to have a 5 minute staff discussion to get newbies engaged enough to enjoy the movie.
Also, including characters from all over, in what appears to be at the very least strong supporting roles, would be a franchise killing move in addition to fanwankery. A cameo (like Janeway's) is fine, but beyond that would be ridiculous and overcrowd the movie. Also, DS9 and Voyager were never as popular as TNG (another reason why those series will never see a film). Having a movie that focuses on them in addition to the TNG crew would be silly as a general audience member would probably want to watch Picard and Co instead of these other yahoos.
You wouldn't have to bring in alot of people. For a pure movie, bring Worf, Obrien and Bashir on the Enterprise and you've had all actors who've played that role in the series.
I know... it's a really good thing that people don't take a well drawn out novel, explaining people's feelings, backstory and hundreds of pages of story and use their imagination to turn that into a live action story instead of writing a 100 minute story with holes.
No there wasn't. DS9 took over the Klingon arc and the cardassian arc
For two, the backstory that DS9 has with the Dominion would be insane for a general audience member to know about. That is mainly why, creatively speaking, there will never be a DS9 movie.
Sorta like explaining the backstory of the Sona, or of even Khan for the people who didn't remember him 16 years later. Or explaining the backstory of the remans. Or any Romulan cloning efforts. Insurrection gave enough backstory of the dominion war for TNG only people to have a 5 minute staff discussion to get newbies engaged enough to enjoy the movie.
Also, including characters from all over, in what appears to be at the very least strong supporting roles, would be a franchise killing move in addition to fanwankery. A cameo (like Janeway's) is fine, but beyond that would be ridiculous and overcrowd the movie. Also, DS9 and Voyager were never as popular as TNG (another reason why those series will never see a film). Having a movie that focuses on them in addition to the TNG crew would be silly as a general audience member would probably want to watch Picard and Co instead of these other yahoos.
You wouldn't have to bring in alot of people. For a pure movie, bring Worf, Obrien and Bashir on the Enterprise and you've had all actors who've played that role in the series.
And just how close are those novels to the movies that they inspired? Also, that argument doesn't even work as those novels were made before the movie was produced while the DS9-relaunch was created after the DS9 series was made. When there are media tie-ins, generally, they are allowed to use any characters/settings/events that they want because they have no budget to worry about. A movie is a different animal because of that.[/quote]
I know... it's a really good thing that people don't take a well drawn out novel, explaining people's feelings, backstory and hundreds of pages of story and use their imagination to turn that into a live action story instead of writing a 100 minute story with holes.
I know... it's a really good thing that people don't take a well drawn out novel, explaining people's feelings, backstory and hundreds of pages of story and use their imagination to turn that into a live action story instead of writing a 100 minute story with holes.[/quote]
The first reason is probably the absolute worst reason I've heard. While even the producers may have felt possessive about their respective show creations, I consider all STs one history, and there is no reason the Dominion war couldn't have played as important a role in the STNG crew's lives as DS9's.
RAMA
The Dominion War could've been a very interesting thing to portray in the movies.
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