Classic episodes now considered "lame" - ?!

[Surfin' Santa]

Of course, if Pike had been able to communicate what he was flashing "no" to, there would have been no story.

 

[Phaser Two]

I don’t have a huge problem believing that something about Pike's condition and its interaction with available technology prevented anything other than yes/no answers. The script—which, let's not forget, was an envelope to present "The Cage"—wasn't detailed enough about it, but I think there are many reasonable explanations.

 

[Troi]

Of course we all have various opinions of which episodes are good and bad. And some TOS episodes have aged better than others. And The Way to Eden was dated from the get-go, And the Children Shall Lead is widely regarded as abysmal, etc.

But it surprises me to read that episodes that are still among my favorites seem to have lost their appeal. One site I visited recently continues to praise Balance of Terror (and rightfully so -- that episode remains superb) but now has people calling The Menagerie "very, very lame," The Naked Time "idiotic," and Journey to Babel "contrived."

Maybe our tastes simply change over time?

I would not agree with the Menagerie being 'very very lame' but its one of the hardest episodes to watch as of my most recent watch though. This is because TOS is very slow to begin with, and this is a two parter! featuring a lot of reused footage from The Cage which I would have just watched recently. I'm actually currently watching TOS again with my fiance and we decided to not watch The Cage this time in hopes of making this episode more fun to watch!

 

[johnnybear]

Who is to say just how badly Pike was affected by those Delta rays? Maybe telepathy and other sciences could have helped but like Commodore Mendez said, nobody can reach him.
JB

 

[Kor]

I would not agree with the Menagerie being 'very very lame' but its one of the hardest episodes to watch as of my most recent watch though. This is because TOS is very slow to begin with, and this is a two parter! featuring a lot of reused footage from The Cage which I would have just watched recently. I'm actually currently watching TOS again with my fiance and we decided to not watch The Cage this time in hopes of making this episode more fun to watch!

At the time, "The Cage" itself had never been broadcast, so to viewers watching "The Menagerie," the whole thing was a new experience.

Kor

 

[JonnyQuest037]

In a society where there are literal telepaths serving in Starfleet, the idea that the best they could manage was a yes or no flashing light was absurd.

Remember, "The Menagerie" was only halfway through the first season of TOS. IIRC, Spock had done all of two mind melds at that point, in "Dagger of the Mind" and "Return of the Archons." In "Dagger," It was painted as a highly risky procedure, and in "Archons," it was unsuccessful. It wasn't the go-to move that it would become by the second season.

Though if that was the case, it kind of begs the question of what Pike's quality of life really was, and why apparently euthanasia/assisted suicide was apparently never on the table.

...Because it was a network television episode airing in 1966?

 

[Surfin' Santa]

I would not agree with the Menagerie being 'very very lame' but its one of the hardest episodes to watch as of my most recent watch though. This is because TOS is very slow to begin with, and this is a two parter!

Slow? The pacing and editing of Trek TOS is comparable to other TV drama series of its time. Meaning it actually gives the viewer time to listen to the dialogue, understand the characters and follow the story.

Oh, and welcome to the board!

Though if that was the case, it kind of begs the question of what Pike's quality of life really was, and why apparently euthanasia/assisted suicide was apparently never on the table.

...Because it was a network television episode airing in 1966?

Exactly. The network censors would never have permitted it.

 

[DonIago]

...Because it was a network television episode airing in 1966?

"We've attempted every medical solution that would have been available to a human living in the year 1966, and there's nothing we can do!"

 

[Charlie Xmas]

...now I kind of like the idea that Pike was in so much agony that attempting telepathic communication with him harmed the telepath.

Gem has joined the chat

 

[Maurice]

I even had fun calculating that if they somehow do meet, how many megatonnes would two men of 175 pounds make assuming a 100% mass to energy conversion? An approximate result would be a fully switched on Tsar Bomba. Certainly not 'jeopardizing the existence of our Universe'.

I asked ChatGPT to calculate it, and it says more like 3,410 megatons, or 68 times the yield of the Tsar Bomba (roughly 227,000 “Hiroshima” (15-kt) bombs). Enough to make a miles-wide crater on the Earth, but literally not Earth-shattering, let alone universe-wrecking.

I never took the idea literally as the two men exploding, more like if two objects from the opposing universes met in either, it would be making an uncontrolled bridge between opposite-charged universes that would cause them to cancel each other out.

I maintain that the simplest solution to the danger would have been for Kirk to just phaser insane Lazarus into vapor, and problem solved.

 

[Charlie Xmas]

I asked ChatGPT to calculate it, and it says more like 3,410 megatons, or 68 times the yield of the Tsar Bomba (roughly 227,000 “Hiroshima” (15-kt) bombs). Enough to make a miles-wide crater on the Earth, but literally not Earth-shattering, let alone universe-wrecking.

I never took the idea literally as the two men exploding, more like if two objects from the opposing universes met in either, it would be making an uncontrolled bridge between opposite-charged universes that would cause them to cancel each other out.

I maintain that the simplest solution to the danger would have been for Kirk to just phaser insane Lazarus into vapor, and problem solved.

I like your numbers, I found a kg to MgTonne conversion page. 3.4 billion megatonnes would be a big crater.

Kilogram to Megajoule | Kilograms to Megajoules Conversion

unitsconverters.com helps in the conversion of different units of measurement like Kilogram to Megajoule through multiplicative conversion factors.

www.unitsconverters.com

Yes, shoot him into vapor.

 

[I am not Herbert]

I maintain that the simplest solution to the danger would have been for Kirk to just phaser insane Lazarus into vapor, and problem solved.

But what of Lazarus?

 

[Maurice]

But what of Lazarus?

Which one?

 

[I am not Herbert]

Which one?

Exactly.

 

[Nude Colonel Stuart]

Exactly.

Tuvix: The Dimensional Prequel

 

[Uhura's Song]

It's the newer fans to the series that cannot understand it's intricacies. Like them say watching Benny Hill ridicule a 70s prime minister or politician which as to them it means nothing and they've never heard of said persons. Trek was also based on incidents and events of the sixties which also is a time beyond their life and so means as much to them as the 1920s does to us.
JB

I'd say the Roaring Twenties and the causes of the Great Depression are relevant as hell.

 

[Uhura's Song]

Yes. One of my favorite YouTube reaction channels is Addie Reacts, where she has pretty positive reactions to older media and doesn't judge it by the standards of the present. She came out of the Christopher Reeve Superman movies with a huge crush on Christopher Reeve. She's currently going through the Sean Connery Bond films from the 1960s and she's genuinely enjoying them. Her enthusiasm is infectious.


"The Menagerie" was pretty exceptional for the time, because it gave the Star Trek Universe a past.

Even though "The Cage" had been made just three years before, it genuinely looked like it belonged to an earlier era than TOS, looking more like Forbidden Planet than a modern production. It was easy to believe we were seeing a mission from 13 years before. "The Menagerie" established the Enterprise as a ship with history, with a Captain and a crew who preceded Kirk taking over. And unless I'm forgetting something, it was the first episode that established that Vulcans were longer-lived than humans, with the Spock of 13 years before looking not too much younger than the Spock of the present day.

Suddenly, the universe of Star Trek seemed like a place with real history, and that gave the show a verisimilitude that it might not have had otherwise.

Great post. Menangerie is a top 15 Trek episode for me, easily.

I will admit, though, some others don't age as well, for me at least. And I get where some of the criticism comes from.

Spock's line at the end of "The Enemy Within" is cringy in a way, for sure. But sonce it can be taken a couple ways, and because Spick is kinda Mr. I sensitive anyway, I don't ding the episode much. Still a very good episode.

I don't view "Mudd's Women" as sexist, at all. Quite the opposite. But it isn't a fantastic episode.

But "Space Seed" and "Galileo Seven" aged less well for me.

 

[Uhura's Song]

I would not agree with the Menagerie being 'very very lame' but its one of the hardest episodes to watch as of my most recent watch though. This is because TOS is very slow to begin with, and this is a two parter! featuring a lot of reused footage from The Cage which I would have just watched recently. I'm actually currently watching TOS again with my fiance and we decided to not watch The Cage this time in hopes of making this episode more fun to watch!

I always recommend TOS S1 in production order, at least thru Menangerie. But I'd skip the Cage for that very reason.

As for the beeping/telepath angle, one can see all kinds of possible explanations. Radiation damage messes up most telepathy save for the most advanced. Etc.

 

[Shawnster]

As for the beeping/telepath angle, one can see all kinds of possible explanations. Radiation damage messes up most telepathy save for the most advanced. Etc.

Still doesn't account for the 20th century tech advancement that allowed Professior Hawking to communicate simply by moving his eyes. This is the same basic premise of the old T9 cell phone texting input.

Or the 19th century tech advancement known as Morse code. Even Johnny could communicate in this manner back in 1939.

Watch 'It's Morse code. For what? SOS. Help. Do you mean to saythat this man is actually speaking...' | Johnny Got His Gun Clip

Watch the clip 'It's Morse code. For what? SOS. Help. Do you mean to saythat this man is actually speaking...' from the movie Johnny Got His Gun on Clip.Cafe. It's Morse code. For what? SOS. Help. Do you mean to say that this man is actually speaking to us? What are they doing? Yes, sir.

clip.cafe

Johnny Got His Gun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's ironic. Johnny was possibly the inspiration for Pike in "The Menagerie"

Joe Bonham, a young American soldier serving in World War I, awakens in a hospital bed after being caught in the blast of an exploding artillery shell. He gradually realizes that he has lost his arms, legs, and all of his face (including his eyes, ears, nose, teeth, and tongue), but that his mind functions perfectly, leaving him a prisoner in his own body.

PIPER: We're forced to consider every possibility, sir. We can be certain Captain Pike cannot have sent a message. In his condition he's under observation every minute of every day.
MENDEZ: And totally unable to move, Jim. His wheel chair is constructed to respond to his brain waves. Oh, he can turn it, move it forwards, or backwards slightly.
PIPER: With the flashing light, he can say yes or no.
MENDEZ: But that's it, Jim. That's as much as that poor devil can do. His mind is as active as yours and mine, but it's trapped inside a useless vegetating body. He's kept alive mechanically, a battery-driven heart.
KIRK: There's no way he could even have asked for that message to be sent?

Pike could communicate. He could speak a binary language. He could move the chair in every direction. We've been translating binary "yes/no" for over 200 years now. T9 was developed at the end of the 20th century. If that's all Pike could do, 23rd century tech should still have given him complete communication ability.

Pike's beep chair, as integral to the plot as it is, did not age well.

 

[Crisp Conditions]

Still doesn't account for the 20th century tech advancement that allowed Professior Hawking to communicate simply by moving his eyes. This is the same basic premise of the old T9 cell phone texting input.

Or the 19th century tech advancement known as Morse code.

Pike could communicate. He could speak a binary language. We've been translating binary "yes/no" for over 200 years now. If that's all Pike could do, 23rd century tech should still have given him complete communication ability.

Pike's beep chair, as integral to the plot as it is, did not age well.

Swap out Pike's beep chair for a Hawking chair, and the story's basically the same.

There's nothing in the story that hinges upon us not knowing what Pike means. When asked to confirm that what they were seeing on the screen is what happened thirteen years ago, Pike beeped once. When asked whether to continue the trial, Pike beeps once. When asked whether Spock is guilty, Pike beeped once. When asked whether he wants to remain on Talos IV, Pike beeps once. The desire to feel like he did when he could move independently, use his body, and speak would still be the same.

The only tweaking that the plot might need is simply to speed up the departure of the Enterprise from Starbase 11. Big whoop.