I guess it's about the intent; that was about showing an alternate history where the actual Nazis won, not a commentary suggesting that they did.
Is it time to put Star Trek to rest?
- Thread starter Dar70
- Start date
"Enterprise got woke! Star Trek never used to be like this!"
* The story is literally about a.
* The story is allegorically intended to make a statement about b.
* The story can be alternately interpreted to be about c, d, e, etc. by some viewers, despite that not being the writer's intention.
I gather the problem is that a and c, etc. have all taken a backseat to b - the story is so obviously not about c, etc. and beat for beat identical/parallel to b that a is more of a plot device than a plot.
* The story is allegorically intended to make a statement about b.
* The story can be alternately interpreted to be about c, d, e, etc. by some viewers, despite that not being the writer's intention.
I gather the problem is that a and c, etc. have all taken a backseat to b - the story is so obviously not about c, etc. and beat for beat identical/parallel to b that a is more of a plot device than a plot.
Yeah. And I got reamed by my 8th grade English teacher when I repeated Spock's commentary.
Still, I doubt the episode was promoting the Nazi party.
Agreed. Hawking's appearance was during an entirely different political climate than today. Plus, he wasn't in any way the political figure or symbol that Musk became. Likewise, Musk wasn't quite the political figure he is today when he was name dropped in Trek.
Lincoln is a revered historical figure a century removed from his Trek depiction. Likewise, that was a different political climate.
Whenever I see people crying over Stacey Abrams being on Disco, I feel a need to remind everyone that Melvin Belli had a guest appearance on TOS. Granted, he wasn't a politician, but he was still a well known and controversial figure of the time.
The third one who uses that description.
No but it shows a mixed attitude, which most contemporary references will do. It's not like that episode aired 70+ years since WW2. It was within generational memory of most viewers. As @Laura Cynthia Chambers quotes it was praised as the most efficient state Earth had known. That's quite the claim to make to your 60s audience.
Yeah to be fair I've gone through MA and I got that wrong - there were a few who were early 20s so I'll retract that one
To me, Star Trek was basically a demonstration of uplifted humans (who got their shit together) living and thriving with other races who also got their shit together in a Federation, and who created a cosmopolitan organization, Star Fleet, that went around exploring and solving sci fi problems while demonstrating their idealistic Utopian values. Everyone in Star Fleet had hit some sort of epitome of professionalism andvpersonal growth, so they always worked together w/o getting mired in mundane personal squabbles. I don't think that sells anymore because the new shows all seem to be based in tragedy, personal loss, and the potential end of the damn universe by scream or interstellar mining. 
...besides Worf, who surprisingly found a great deal of peace and temperance after the crap the Defiant comic is putting him through.
...besides Worf, who surprisingly found a great deal of peace and temperance after the crap the Defiant comic is putting him through.
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TOS wasn't utopian. It could be quite anti utopian at times as Kirk notes man isn't meant for paradise but to struggle. There is cooperation but not always perfection. There is still grief, loss, as well as discovery and curiosity and mutual support.To me, Star Trek was basically a demonstration of uplifted humans (who got their shit together) living and thriving with other races who also got their shit together in a Federation, and who created a cosmopolitan organization, Star Fleet, that went around exploring and solving sci fi problems while demonstrating their idealistic Utopian values. I don't think that sells anymore because the new shows all seem to be based in tragedy, personal loss, and the potential end of the damn universe by scream or interstellar mining.
...besides Worf, who surprisingly found a great deal of peace and temperance after the crap the Defiant comic is putting him through.
Any humanity that could produce Harry Mudd and Cyrano Jones was no 23rd century utopia.
Indeed, a common theme in TOS is that Utopia was to be abhorred as it could only lead to stagnation.
Utopia as man may imagine it, perhaps - as some people wonder if we would get bored floating around in heaven on clouds and playing the harp all day.
But it's just that old saw about the trains running etc. It's not a mixed attitude on a moral judgment level.
That was Mussolini and the trains.
And that doesn't change either Spock's comment, or the era of the audience.
I think folks were smart enough to know that they weren’t praising the Nazis. If they did think that, the rest of the episode should put that thinking to rest.
Presumably, the idea is meant to be that humans of Kirk's day were so far removed from the 1940s in both time and space that such a statement could be made without necessarily provoking the strong reactions that would entirely naturally and normally be evoked by such a comment today.
EDIT: However, the raw wounds of more recent and personal horrendous events are still fresh for them, or the scar tissue is ripped off (Tarsus IV, for instance). They, like the audience, may or may not make the immediate connection between the atrocities of our shared past and those fictional incidents only in the characters' past and present.
EDIT: However, the raw wounds of more recent and personal horrendous events are still fresh for them, or the scar tissue is ripped off (Tarsus IV, for instance). They, like the audience, may or may not make the immediate connection between the atrocities of our shared past and those fictional incidents only in the characters' past and present.
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It is difficult to not see efficiency as praise in some measure. Would be curious to see contemporary review of that episode given it's only a generation removed from Nazi Germany and that some of the cast were impacted by World War 2.
The common theme was that the Federation was a post need, post money, utopian society where people strived to better themselves and society even further, and Star Fleet was its the tip of the spear - practically missionaries of their way of life.
Needless to say, just because it was a utopian society doesn't mean they thought the Federation was perfect.
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