Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[Jayson Poorknees]

People need to learn first how to understand context and in essence learn how to think about issues and talk about issues before people start talking about actual issues. People are not dumb and people have access to more truth today about everything than ever before in human history. But people have forgotten how to think critically and have forgotten how engage with others, especially when they disagree on stuff.

 

[Set Harth]

I guess I'm kind of in the other camp on this. For one thing art, even as silly as superhero movies, should help us deal with reality, so BECAUSE there are so many who would think Nazi characters were the good guys is exactly the reason why they need to be more present again AS THE BAD GUYS.
People need a reminder that Nazis are the bad guys, have always been the bad guys, and always will be the bad guys.

See that quote in my signature? Gustave Gilbert was a psychologist, and he came to this conclusion after analysing the accused at the Nuremberg trials. His definition of Evil came from studying Nazis and their motives. Because being Nazi means being evil, and if a Nazi does not want to be evil anymore, if they want to reclaim their humanity, that process, with whatever other steps are needed, also always entails stopping being a Nazi.

Too many people seem to have forgotten that, so we really need to drill it back into public consciousness. Nazis are always the bad guys, because Nazis are irrefutably evil.

So, yes, have a Nazi Captain America, because that would be a great bad guy. Because Evil, just as Nazis, can come around looking like people we previously held in high regard. The reason why Alexander Pierce was a great bad guy is because he looked like the late Robert Redford. We, the audience, think of Robert Redford as a good guy, but then Pierce went and had his housekeeper killed and schemed to kill our heroes and thousands of others while putting the whole world under his control. A person with a face we trust goes and does undeniably evil things.

So, yeah, I'm all for stories like that which teach us to be vigilant, and that Nazis are evil and need to be opposed.

Are these Nazis in the room with us now?

 

[Turtletrekker]

That's bait.

 

[Set Harth]

I am one of the Vuvalini of the Many Mothers! My Initiate Mother was K.T. Concannon! I am the daughter of Mary Jabassa! My clan was Swaddle Dog!

 

[The Nightmare Doctor]

Uh-huh.

 

[Jayson Poorknees]

I am one of the Vuvalini of the Many Mothers! My Initiate Mother was K.T. Concannon! I am the daughter of Mary Jabassa! My clan was Swaddle Dog!

I have no idea what that is from.

 

[Zombie Cheerleader]

I have no idea what that is from.

Mad Max Fury Road, Furiosa.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I agree, but there will always be some people who miss the point and root for the bad guys, like the "Thanos was right" contingent, say. It absolutely is important to say Nazis are bad, yes, but that's not likely to change the minds of anyone sympathetic to the Nazis; it's more to remind the rest of us to be vigilant.

Although in the current climate, I don't know if a Nazi Captain America is a good idea, unless the real Captain America (i.e. Sam) is there to oppose and defeat him, and emphatically remind us that fighting Nazis is what Captain America has been about since day one.

If the population of a planet reaches 6 billion, a Celestial egg cracks open, and everyone dies, or Thanos kills half the world first, and that doesn't happen.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I don't see a major implication. Maybe if Sam Wilson had become more popular in the movies then it would be the case or if he was the only non-white character in the movies but he is really just another character.

The implication of White Evans returning to that role (no matter the silly-assed dimension or multiverse version), when the effort was made to build the Wilson arc and his rightful claiming of the Cap identity (as Marvel Studios explored that in the D+ series) would be a social grenade, which would not be motivated from your "most popular characters and run with them" idea by any stretch of the imagination. They were continuing a natural story and making a pointed comment on real world negativity about a Black man in that role.

IMO the goal is to not worry about real world politics or comic book canon or any of that stuff. It should be to gather your most popular characters and run with them. IMO the perfect Avengers cast would have been.

That was not the goal, which would have been crystal clear to anyone watching the D+ series, where many of the themes / plotlines were a reflection of the comics and real world sociopolitical problems. That goes with the Captain America territory, at least in the character's greatest stories.

Sam Wilson as Captain America who more or less fills the role of Nick Fury

Based on what? The two have completely different motivations and skillsets, so what--specifically--makes Wilson as Cap somehow capable of serving the same role as Fury?

 

[DigificWriter]

The implication of White Evans returning to that role (no matter the silly-assed dimension or multiverse version), when the effort was made to build the Wilson arc and his rightful claiming of the Cap identity--as Marvel Studios explored that in the D+ series) would be a social grenade, which would be motivated from your "most popular characters and run with them" idea by any stretch of the imagination. They were continuing a natural story and making a pointed comment on real world negativity about a Black man in that role.



That was not the goal, which would have been crystal clear to anyone watching the D+ series, where many of the themes / plotlines were a reflection of the comics and real world sociopolitical problems. That goes with the Captain America territory, at least in the character's greatest stories.



Based on what? The two have completely different motivations and skillsets, so what--specifically--makes Wilson as Cap somehow capable of serving the same role as Fury?

I don't know why you're trying to reason with a person whose comments are blatantly nonsensical.

 

[JD]

I am not sure any of this Nazi stuff is going to be a feature of the next Avengers movie. From what it sounds like it is going to be Avengers vs X Men with Dr Doom manipulating the situation. If that is the case then it makes more sense to just have regular Steve Rogers back as Captain America and seems like the main conflict would be him facing off with Doom and Downey Jr.

No, bring back the original Steve Rogers would be one of the absolute worst decisions they could possibly make. First of all, it would completely ruin the absolutely perfect ending he was given in Endgame. And on top of that, it would look racist as hell, and completely undermine Sam ever having become Captain America.
You maybe have variant pop up for a couple scene just for a fun cameo, but anything more than that would be one of the absolute worst creative decisions they've made in the MCU so far.

I feel like Sam as Captain America's role would be to sort of be one who sort of is first to find out about the threat and he is in the "round up a team" position. The first person he would likely turn to is Bucky and you know I think him,Buck and Steve Rogers from the past would be fun small team within the bigger Avengers team. I was thinking it would be something like this.


Steve,Sam, Bucky, US Agent and new Falcon.

Fantastic Four

Spiderman,Thor,Wong,Punisher,Shang-Chi

Ms Marvel,Yelena, Red Guardian,Kate Bishop and Sentry.

I doubt we'll see them breaking up the different Avengers teams like that.

We got tons of Nazi stories these days. The Boys,Peacemaker etc. Also your already turning Downey Jr into bad guy. You need someone who has some personal stakes in going up against what is in essence evil Tony Stark. The two people that most fit the bill would be Captain America(Steve) and or Spider-Man. Steve would basically be Superman to Stark as Lex Luthor. Steve is Batman to Tony's Joker etc.

There are plenty of other ways to make things personal without brining back Steve.

Even with a big ensemble you still need a protagonist who the movie is mostly built around and something that makes it more than just a bunch of characters fighting each other. Actually you need three. Someone needs to be the most important X-Men character out of all the X-Men characters. I think it is going to be Namor. Stewart and McKellen are two old.

IMO the three most important characters are going to be Steve Rogers as Captain America, Dr Doom/Stark Variant and Namor. Captain America will be fighting to preserve the old MCU.
Namor will be fighting for a world that has Mutants.

Namor really has not connections to the X-Men or mutants, so this would make no sense.

Dr Doom is manipulating them to create a world were he is basically GOD or the ultimate ruler.

People need to learn first how to understand context and in essence learn how to think about issues and talk about issues before people start talking about actual issues. People are not dumb

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and people have access to more truth today about everything than ever before in human history.

But it's a hell of a lot harder to find it through all the lies, and the lies are being pushed a lot harder these days than the truth is.

But people have forgotten how to think critically and have forgotten how engage with others, especially when they disagree on stuff.

This part I do agree with.

I have no idea what that is from.

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[Set Harth]

Namor really has not connections to the X-Men or mutants, so this would make no sense.

In the comics Namor is a mutant.

 

[DigificWriter]

In the comics Namor is a mutant.

He's a mutant in the MCU as well, but so is Kamala Kahn, so being a mutant doesn't automatically mean being associated with the X-Men.

 

[theenglish]

In the comics Namor is a mutant.

Isn't that a recent retcon?

 

[DigificWriter]

Isn't that a recent retcon?

No.

Namor was first identified as being a mutant back in the 60s (specifically in Fantastic Four Annual #1, published in July 1963).

 

[Jayson Poorknees]

The implication of White Evans returning to that role (no matter the silly-assed dimension or multiverse version), when the effort was made to build the Wilson arc and his rightful claiming of the Cap identity (as Marvel Studios explored that in the D+ series) would be a social grenade, which would not be motivated from your "most popular characters and run with them" idea by any stretch of the imagination. They were continuing a natural story and making a pointed comment on real world negativity about a Black man in that role.



That was not the goal, which would have been crystal clear to anyone watching the D+ series, where many of the themes / plotlines were a reflection of the comics and real tworld sociopolitical problems. That goes with the Captain America territory, at least in the character's greatest stories.



Based on what? The two have completely different motivations and skillsets, so what--specifically--makes Wilson as Cap somehow capable of serving the same role as Fury?

I understand the themes they were going for with Wilson as Captain America. It even worked in the show. The movie not so much. The problem though is the character is just not as popular in the movies and their is also the fact that they basically are in place where they got to save the MCU, especially when it James Gunn is doing way more interesting things over in the DCU.

I do understand bringing back Steve Rogers like bringing back Downey JR is not a long term answer to righting the ship but they could really help get the the new MCU a kickstart. Something that will likely not be focused around Captain America or Iron Man anymore but the X Men and who knows which new character might take off.

IMO they made lots of bad choices and one can't just keep moving forward like the MCU is as popular ever. They do have to make course corrections and change plans if they want to fix the problems that have come up. As for Namor. I know he used to be a Mutant. I think he would make for a good foil for the Avengers. They way I see it is he would be the short term face of the Mutants but when the MCU changes that role would eventually shift to the younger and newer versions of Charles Xavier and Magneto. I also have a theory is we will also get a new Doom that is more traditional and not played by Downey Jr-post Avengers movie.

 

[Mage]

I want Chris Evans as a Red Guardian from another Earth. WIth David Harbour in his current physical shape as Red Guardian showing up as Cap.

 

[theenglish]

I understand the themes they were going for with Wilson as Captain America. It even worked in the show. The movie not so much. The problem though is the character is just not as popular in the movies and their is also the fact that they basically are in place where they got to save the MCU, especially when it James Gunn is doing way more interesting things over in the DCU.

I think you have some good points about the MCU. The problem with Sam Wilson's movie wasn't the concept though--the movie was just bad.

 

[Mage]

I think you have some good points about the MCU. The problem with Sam Wilson's movie wasn't the concept though--the movie was just bad.

I wouldn't say bad....
But not coherent. You can tell that a lot changed during production, scenes were cut. Too many cooks in the kitchen.

 

[theenglish]

I wouldn't say bad....
But not coherent. You can tell that a lot changed during production, scenes were cut. Too many cooks in the kitchen.

"not coherent" is probably the correct term. In my opinion, and maybe because I was looking forward to the film so much, it was the biggest creative bomb of the MCU.