News Exclusive: Scott Bakula Eyeing Star Trek Return In President Archer Series Pitch From ‘Enterprise’ Producer

[Yistaan]

The context of his statement coincides with his first contact mission in the episode, sanctioned by the Federation. The ‘we’ in his statement clearly refers to the Federation, because that’s what he’s representing.

Then we STILL haven't seen Federation/Klingon First Contact because in Discovery they've already had some contact. Earth's first contact with Klingons doesn't count any more than Vulcan, Tellarite, or Andorian first contact with them and we haven't seen those either.

Maybe T'Kuvma was at Fed/Klingon First Contact and got ticked off, leading to the events of Discovery. Although T'Kuvma didn't seem that old in Disco so official contact happening almost 100 years after Enterprise, while not impossible, is strange.

 

[Dukhat]

Then we STILL haven't seen Federation/Klingon First Contact because in Discovery they've already had some contact. Earth's first contact with Klingons doesn't count any more than Vulcan, Tellarite, or Andorian first contact with them and we haven't seen those either.

Maybe T'Kuvma was at Fed/Klingon First Contact and got ticked off, leading to the events of Discovery. Although T'Kuvma didn't seem that old in Disco so official contact happening almost 100 years after Enterprise, while not impossible, is strange.

I am going by the context in which Picard’s statement was made. ENT and DSC didn’t exist at the time, so using them and the events that happened in them to take Picard’s statement out of the context in which it was made is a futile endeavor. Just accept that a retcon was made later and Picard’s statement is now invalid. It’s not like anyone is trying to justify why Kirk’s middle initial is ‘R’ in WNMHGB.

 

[fireproof78]

It’s not like anyone is trying to justify why Kirk’s middle initial is ‘R’ in WNMHGB.

Every once in a while I do. It's fun.

 

[Noname Given]

Picard: Centuries ago, a disastrous contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war. It was decided then we would do surveillance before making contact. It was a controversial decision. I believe it prevented more problems than it created.

On re-read, Picard NEVER says which Fed member had the disastrous contact with Klingons that led to decades of war. Could've been the Andorians or Tellarites. He never said it was Earth (the Vulcan Hello's memory alpha page doesn't seem to match what Picard describes here either)

You guys should just ask TrekBBS user Mudd directly as he wrote the script for the TNG episode First Contact and Picard's line about "Disastrous first contact..."

 

[Dukhat]

You guys should just ask TrekBBS user Mudd directly as he wrote the script for the TNG episode First Contact and Picard's line about "Disastrous first contact..."

I don’t need to ask him. It’s quite clear what Picard meant.

 

[Dukhat]

Not sure why my comment was so humorous, but I see we're veering off topic. For the people who really want a post-ENT President Archer show, good luck.

 

[Daedalus]

Not sure why my comment was so humorous, but I see we're veering off topic. For the people who really want a post-ENT President Archer show, good luck.

We'll definitely need it.

 

[XCV330]

I had felt like the Klingon Empire was in a very isolationist phase and there were aspects of Federation, rogue colonies and the like already getting into their own spheres of interest. Might have been a very long Cold War with proxie wars. The idea of a Federation first contact, when Vulcans and Humans knew them already and so presumably did Tellarites and Andorians since they had also been flying in warp ships longer than humans doesn’t make sense.

It’s also possible the proto-Federation tried to get the Klingons involved in the Romulan war and botched that initial diplomatic move so badly that it ruined things forever. Sounds like an Archer move.

 

[Dukhat]

I had felt like the Klingon Empire was in a very isolationist phase and there were aspects of Federation, rogue colonies and the like already getting into their own spheres of interest. Might have been a very long Cold War with proxie wars. The idea of a Federation first contact, when Vulcans and Humans knew them already and so presumably did Tellarites and Andorians since they had also been flying in warp ships longer than humans doesn’t make sense.

It’s also possible the proto-Federation tried to get the Klingons involved in the Romulan war and botched that initial diplomatic move so badly that it ruined things forever. Sounds like an Archer move.

Not like I really want to get drawn back into this conversation, but TOS showed that the Federation and the Klingon Empire were at about the same level of technology. But ENT showed that the Klingons were far in advance of humans, and that Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites already knew about them, but had no interest in making any kind of first contact protocols about them. So none of that lines up with Picard's statement.

 

[FredH]

Not like I really want to get drawn back into this conversation, but TOS showed that the Federation and the Klingon Empire were at about the same level of technology. But ENT showed that the Klingons were far in advance of humans, and that Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites already knew about them, but had no interest in making any kind of first contact protocols about them.

Don’t really see a problem here. In the 22nd century, Klingon tech is ahead of humanity’s — but their society is ossifying now, with non-warrior pursuits being massively downgraded and probably denigrated, as per what the lawyer told Archer. So a hundred years later, Klingon tech hasn’t moved much, whereas Earth’s/the Federation’s has skyrocketed by comparison, with all the interspecies exchange of the century since.

And Picard? Sometimes he just gets things wrong or, more likely, parrots ingrained “slanted readings” of history — that’s right in there on the whole “we’ve evolved” attitude he doesn’t get shocked out of until First Contact.

 

[Dukhat]

Don’t really see a problem here. In the 22nd century, Klingon tech is ahead of humanity’s — but their society is ossifying now, with non-warrior pursuits being massively downgraded and probably denigrated, as per what the lawyer told Archer. So a hundred years later, Klingon tech hasn’t moved much, whereas Earth’s/the Federation’s has skyrocketed by comparison, with all the interspecies exchange of the century since.

It couldn't have affected it too much, since the entire Federation still considers the Klingon Empire to be a formidable enemy in the 23rd century rather than some random group of pesky aliens from the 22nd century who couldn't keep up with the technological advances of other cultures.

And Picard? Sometimes he just gets things wrong or, more likely, parrots ingrained “slanted readings” of history — that’s right in there on the whole “we’ve evolved” attitude he doesn’t get shocked out of until First Contact.

So now Picard is an idiot? C'mon. Why is it so hard to just retcon away what he said? It doesn't fit anymore, so there's no need to jump through convoluted hoops just to take his words out of context.

 

[137th Gebirg]

He’s not an idiot. He was just indoctrinated into a certain way of thinking as a 24th century Starfleet captain. He clearly believed in the whole “evolved” mythos that was conditioned within him and his contemporaries and it got him through the bulk of his career. At least, up until he got kicked square in the ego by an “unevolved” 21st century troglodyte rube. He clearly enjoyed the sound of his own head rattling while he lectured others on how backwards they were. Not his fault, really. It’s how he was trained to act. He became much wiser in such things later on, as it should be.

 

[Danja]

He’s not an idiot. He was just indoctrinated into a certain way of thinking as a 24th century Starfleet captain. He clearly believed in the whole “evolved” mythos that was conditioned within him and his contemporaries and it got him through the bulk of his career. At least, up until he got kicked square in the ego by an “unevolved” 21st century troglodyte rube.

A troglodyte rube ... Seven of Nine ... Cristobal Rios ...

Picard REALLY cut him down!

 

[Tosk]

You guys should just ask TrekBBS user Mudd directly as he wrote the script for the TNG episode First Contact and Picard's line about "Disastrous first contact..."

He can chime in for himself, but in case he doesn't: the script had five writers and according to the information on MemAlpha, it sure sounds like he was on a draft of the script that was at least moderately different to the final one by Michael Piller.

So he worked on a script and may have written the line in question.

 

[Nerys Myk]

He can chime in for himself, but in case he doesn't: the script had five writers and according to the information on MemAlpha, it sure sounds like he was on a draft of the script that was at least moderately different to the final one by Michael Piller.

So he worked on a script and may have written the line in question.

IIRC, Mudd has said the line was his and he didn't have any particular "history" in mind for it.

 

[FederationHistorian]

ohhhh. So what Picard said was true, from a certain point of view.

Yeah. Picard is definitely someone who would consider the viewpoints and history of other Federation members, instead of having an Earth-centred focus.

The context of his statement coincides with his first contact mission in the episode, sanctioned by the Federation. The ‘we’ in his statement clearly refers to the Federation, because that’s what he’s representing.

Then why is the depiction of first contact between Klingons and humans in ENT such a big deal?

Unless you take literally a reference Kirk made in TAS about Earth-Federation starships existing 150 before the events of TOS i.e. 2119, the year of the founding of the Warp Five Complex, over forty years before the United Federation of Planets was founded, it doesn’t really break canon at all.

It’s also possible the proto-Federation tried to get the Klingons involved in the Romulan war and botched that initial diplomatic move so badly that it ruined things forever. Sounds like an Archer move.

Or the Klingon Empire of the 2150s were puppets of the Romulan Empire. Meaning the Federation, specifically Earth, could call a mulligan on first contact with the Klingons since they never really dealt with the Klingon government outside of Romulan influence before. So, they did an official first contact mission. But for whatever reason, did not think it was necessary to do surveillance beforehand…because humans were already familiar with them, based on the events of ENT.

It's convoluted, but fits with how the Federation does not seem to acknowledge pre-Federation interstellar history aka the events from ENT.

It would also fit in with the radical re-imagining of the Klingons in DIS, as the Klingons were very concerned about retaining their identity. The slogan "Remain Klingon" probably goes beyond T'Kuvma or the Federation expanding to the Klingon border. Maybe the slogan was lifted from a previous usage around the time of the Federation's founding.

 

[Dukhat]

Then why is the depiction of first contact between Klingons and humans in ENT such a big deal?

Unless you take literally a reference Kirk made in TAS about Earth-Federation starships existing 150 before the events of TOS i.e. 2119, the year of the founding of the Warp Five Complex, over forty years before the United Federation of Planets was founded, it doesn’t really break canon at all.

You're not listening.

We're not talking about ENT. ENT was the retcon. We're also not talking about TAS, which was considered non-canon during TNG's run. We're talking about Picard's statement that:

Chancellor, there is no starship mission more dangerous than that of first contact. We never know what we will face when we open the door on a new world, how we will be greeted, what exactly the dangers will be. Centuries ago, a disastrous contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war. It was decided then we would do surveillance before making contact. It was a controversial decision. I believe it prevented more problems than it created.

None of the above has anything to do with what we saw in ENT. Why? Because ENT didn't exist when this episode was written. So there's no need to go back and try to take Picard's words out of context to justify a retcon. Just like there's no need to go back and try to take TAS Scotty's words about the Bonaventure being the first ship to have warp drive installed out of context to justify future productions retconning that away. It's just old outdated info that was superseded by newer canon.

 

[Mudd]

You guys should just ask TrekBBS user Mudd directly as he wrote the script for the TNG episode First Contact and Picard's line about "Disastrous first contact..."

Well, to clarify...

The "First contact with Klingons motivated our first contact protocols" was part of our pitch for our angle on the story. And it was in our treatments, and it was in our draft of the script.

It made it through, obviously, to the shooting script. But there are five names on that script, as well as a story credit. Later writers almost certainly had their own ideas about it - if they gave the line any further thought at all; it was really just a bit of pooh-bah to lend some credibility to Riker snooping around in disguise.

I did have something in mind for what that bad first encounter was like, but it wasn't relevant to events in the script as written, so obviously it's about as far from canon as you can get without being either fan fiction or the alleged 947-foot length of the TOS Enterprise.

And so, no, "Disastrous first contact with the Klingons led to decades of conflict" did not mean that the two powers went to immediate all-out war upon first contact or shortly thereafter. That would be too comic-bookish. It meant no more than that we rather critically failed to understand the other's customs and got off on the wrong foot, sliding into more open hostilities as time and competition wore on. That was the whole point of secretly studying a culture before openly approaching them. Call it anthropological diplomacy.

What happened in "Broken Bow" doesn't contradict anything Dave or I intended, which is as much as I can say about it.

As for what Picard meant...

He didn't mean anything, because he doesn't exist. He cannot, therefore, be interrogated as to his intent; the words Stewart said are what they are and nothing more or less.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

So doing a political thriller/West Wing type show set in the Trekverse would be up my alley.

One of the things that made The West Wing work was how it resonated with real world politics. In a science fiction setting of the future, the way in which this can happen is fundamentally different.

I get it that TWW+ST is an elevator pitch, but I there has to be more to it on a fundamental level, since the ideas don't naturally fuse. It might still be workable, but it would require top-level writing.

 

[Dukhat]

As for what Picard meant...

He didn't mean anything, because he doesn't exist. He cannot, therefore, be interrogated as to his intent; the words Stewart said are what they are and nothing more or less.

Except that precisely because Picard is just a fictional character, his lines are subject to interpretation, because he can't say 'that's not what I meant.' So judging his lines solely by the context of the episode:

Chancellor, there is no starship mission more dangerous than that of first contact. We never know what we will face when we open the door on a new world, how we will be greeted, what exactly the dangers will be. Centuries ago, a disastrous contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war. It was decided then we would do surveillance before making contact. It was a controversial decision. I believe it prevented more problems than it created.

(Emphasis mine)

Picard says 'we' five times. In the context of the episode where he is acting as an ambassador of the Federation during first contact protocol (which he explains above), 'we' clearly means the Federation as a whole, who wants Malcor III to join them. Not just Earth, not just Vulcan. The Federation. Granted he doesn't elaborate as to exactly who made that disastrous contact with the Klingons which led to decades of war, but again in the context of his speech, he clearly means the Federation, since a direct result of that contact led the Federation (his final 'we') to adopt FC protocols. And the Prime Directive did not exist until after the Federation was formed, so the first contact protocols would also have to have been created after the Federation was formed.

Plus, as far as ENT goes, Earth’s first contact with a Klingon was neither disastrous, nor did it start decades of war. Nor was there a need for covert surveillance before making first contact, because everyone other than Earth already knew who the Klingons were, not to mention that they were already more technologically advanced than humans. So yeah, it’s a bit of a contradiction with what Picard states.

So while I appreciate your insights as to what you had in mind when you co-wrote the story, ultimately the story trumps authorial intent, which was why I said earlier that it doesn't really matter what the author (you) intended for that line.