Why did the TOS films never bring back Carol Marcus?

[FederationHistorian]

Reading MA recently, I learned how Carol Marcus was omitted from GEN at Paramount’s request. Which is why she did not appear in the Nexus scene and was replaced with Antonia.

It did create a larger question as to why Carol Marcus did not appear in the TOS films again? Compared with David, Saavik, Sarek and Cartwright?

She was not killed off in TSFS, neither in the loss of the USS Grissom or on the Genesis Planet, thereby leaving open an opportunity for her to return in the TOS films. But she never did.

Not in TVH in a cameo beside Saavik. Not in TFF, even though an appearance her probably would have worked with Sybok taking away everyone’s pain, and her as on of his followers. And not in TUC, which is set several years after TWOK and would have been a significant enough time away from Kirk.

Even when considering how her presence could comprise Kirk’s Lone Ranger status, I do not see how a brief cameo appearance would actually compromise that aspect of Kirk.

So, what was it about?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I would add that if the original actress didn't want to/couldn't appear, they could even have re-cast her, as they did with Saavik.

 

[Daddy Todd]

Maybe Shatner didn't like Bibi Besch? Maybe Paramount was exercising typical Hollywood misogyny and wanted a Hot Chick instead of a grown woman well past her last f*ckable day?

My guess is Option 2.

 

[CoveTom]

Maybe Shatner didn't like Bibi Besch? Maybe Paramount was exercising typical Hollywood misogyny and wanted a Hot Chick instead of a grown woman well past her last f*ckable day?

My guess is Option 2.

Bibi Besch was 40 in TWOK. It might surprise you to know that 40-year-old women still have sex.

 

[Daddy Todd]

Bibi Besch was 40 in TWOK. It might surprise you to know that 40-year-old women still have sex.

Tell Hollywood. They think 32 is the absolute cutoff.

 

[TheAdmiralty]

These movies just had tons of characters. TSFS would have been the most logical but I think you'd have needed her to replace either David or Saavik to keep it from getting too cluttered having a pair on the planet just works better than a big group. Could have had a cameo in Voyage Home, but again, there's a lot of characters and they had a lot to do in the prologue to that movie with showing how Spock was progressing, closing things off with Saavik and introducing the probe. No reason for her to be in TFF or TUC.

Agree I think putting her in Generations instead of someone we've never seen would have been a better move.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

And then re-casting would make sense, because instead of TWOK Carol and David, we might have younger Carol and little David - Kirk's dream to have been involved in their lives from the start realized in a fantasy world.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Maybe Shatner didn't like Bibi Besch? Maybe Paramount was exercising typical Hollywood misogyny and wanted a Hot Chick instead of a grown woman well past her last f*ckable day?

My guess is Option 2.

Reasonable guesses, if we had seen the woman in Generations, but we didn't.

Is there a deleted scene with her?

 

[CoveTom]

The problem with Bibi Besch is that the scene where she would likely have been, where Kirk talks about the day he told Antonia he was going back to Starfleet, was in Kirk's past. We accept that Kirk looks his current age in that scene, but it wouldn't make sense for Carol to look her current age. It should be the past version of Carol, which Besch would be too old to portray at that point.

 

[Ssosmcin]

We didn't have to see Carol any clearer than we saw Antonia. So her age is meaningless. It's a name that is familiar to fans and movie audiences (probably more so and more realistic than Edith Keeler would have been - regardless of how much critic Scott Mantz wanted it to be Edith). And the connection to David (and even a mention) would have given Shatner something stronger to play. I can't see how he'd object to that.

Honestly, I never once read that they even considered Carol as the woman. None of the books I've read dropped her name at all. It's always Edith.

 

[TheAdmiralty]

Honestly, I never once read that they even considered Carol as the woman. None of the books I've read dropped her name at all. It's always Edith.

Agree, I've thought this as well but didn't get into it in my first post. It didn't work out with Carol because they were fundamentally non compatible. Edith really was "the one that got away" given that she was taken from him.

Having Collins show up as a surprise in Generations would have been great and also fit with the Nexus concept more since Edith living with Kirk on his own Earth would have been clearly impossible. People who were only familiar with TNG or were just wandering into the theater would not have gotten it but it's not like they knew who "Antonia" was either.

 

[Uxi]

These movies just had tons of characters. TSFS would have been the most logical but I think you'd have needed her to replace either David or Saavik to keep it from getting too cluttered having a pair on the planet just works better than a big group. Could have had a cameo in Voyage Home, but again, there's a lot of characters and they had a lot to do in the prologue to that movie with showing how Spock was progressing, closing things off with Saavik and introducing the probe. No reason for her to be in TFF or TUC.

Agree I think putting her in Generations instead of someone we've never seen would have been a better move.

Another reason I can lament the time travel angel of Star Trek IV instead of dealing with the events of TWOK in both macro (aftermath of Genesis and political ramifications - increased hostility with the Klingons, etc) as well as micro (the novelization went into the weeds on Carol and the Deltans but did like the angle of Scotty visiting his family to deal with Peter Preston) as well as the Saavik half Romulan angle.

The idea of reformed/savage Spock making a child with Saavik was an interesting one, too.

 

[Ssosmcin]

The idea of reformed/savage Spock making a child with Saavik was an interesting one, too.

Yeah this never set well with me. Unstable planet, unknown life signs heading their way, their ship was just blown to smithereens but those selfsame approaching life forms (something Saavik would have put together) and they do the Sehlat with two backs because of Pon Farr? Forgetting that it leaves out essential aspects of it (the joining at the young age, etc), it's impractical.

At best, Spock got a handy, but I rather think Saavik cooled him off with something more intimate on the "telepathic Vulcan way." Then took a nap.

Honestly, if there was one scene I would lose from the movie, that's it. It's a sweet scene, but it's a bit of a botch.

Besides, and this is the part everyone leaves out....Spock didn't mate in Amok Time. He went through the blood fever, did the combat to the death, thought he killed his best friend, lost his mojo for T'Pring and off he went. He didn't die because he didn't have sex (no Star Trek fan has). It's not important, apparently, that Vulcans mate...they need to defeat the urge.

 

[TheAdmiralty]

Another reason I can lament the time travel angel of Star Trek IV instead of dealing with the events of TWOK in both macro (aftermath of Genesis and political ramifications - increased hostility with the Klingons, etc) as well as micro (the novelization went into the weeds on Carol and the Deltans but did like the angle of Scotty visiting his family to deal with Peter Preston) as well as the Saavik half Romulan angle.

The idea of reformed/savage Spock making a child with Saavik was an interesting one, too.

I love Voyage Home but "the road not taken" with ST IV being a more direct sequel to TSFS is interesting. I've heard it claimed online that a lot of the Klingon trial/prison stuff in TUC was taken from an early pre Voyage Home ST IV draft and I could see that. Klingons grab Kirk and Spock takes command of the Bird of Prey to go get him to continue with them taking turns rescuing each other. Could have worked pregnant Saavik in there as a subplot as well and the beginning on Vulcan and end with Kirk going back to Starfleet might have been similar.

Yeah this never set well with me. Unstable planet, unknown life signs heading their way, their ship was just blown to smithereens but those selfsame approaching life forms (something Saavik would have put together) and they do the Sehlat with two backs because of Pon Farr? Forgetting that it leaves out essential aspects of it (the joining at the young age, etc), it's impractical.

At best, Spock got a handy, but I rather think Saavik cooled him off with something more intimate on the "telepathic Vulcan way." Then took a nap.

Honestly, if there was one scene I would lose from the movie, that's it. It's a sweet scene, but it's a bit of a botch.

Besides, and this is the part everyone leaves out....Spock didn't mate in Amok Time. He went through the blood fever, did the combat to the death, thought he killed his best friend, lost his mojo for T'Pring and off he went. He didn't die because he didn't have sex (no Star Trek fan has). It's not important, apparently, that Vulcans mate...they need to defeat the urge.

Pon Farr's just been a very inconsistent concept. I've also wondered why Vulcans couldn't just masturbate in lieu of a partner since the physical response is the same. Having one partner they telepathically bond with in childhood who they physically need in maturity would be the explanation but they haven't really followed that since with the scene with Saavik and the stuff with Vorik and B'Elanna and Tuvok using a hologram on Voyager.

 

[Uxi]

Pon Farr is a drive to procreation, not orgasm and feral Spock hasn't had any time to mentally develop to understand it intellectually more than primal. It's as much linked to their telepathy as the physical aspects so holodeck spoofing would be out, too.

That whole Genesis plot is strange though and convenient macguffin timing if nothing else. Perhaps a good opportunity to bring in a younger actor though that would be anathema. Best solution in retrospect is not to waste Spock's sacrifice and leave him dead (or appearing in cameos first in McCoy's head and through his vrekatra) or have the Genesis recreation die instead and get the Katra back into the Hall of Ancient Thought (the St III, IV, and V novelizations did that so much better than ENT with the "Katric Arks"). Perhaps BOTH younger actor and Nimoy through the Hall of Ancient Thought is an interesting via media.

 

[CoveTom]

I've also wondered why Vulcans couldn't just masturbate in lieu of a partner since the physical response is the same.

It's not, though. Yeah, you can experience physical pleasure and orgasm from masturbation, but human sexuality (and presumably Vulcan) is far more complex than that. Why do you think most people would prefer to have sex than to masturbate? There is lots of scientific research that shows regular sexual activity with someone actually does rewire the brain in a very physical, detectable way that bonds the two people together. There is a lot more that goes on in the body during actual sex between two people than just an orgasm.