Spoilers Andor - Season 2

[Crewman6]

Lord I hate STID so much. The whole Khan reveal, much like the Blofeld reveal in Spectre, makes zero sense because in both cases it's a reveal for the audience not the characters.

EXACTLY! So true. Ugh, Spectre was the worst and those moments are virtually identical and are equally dumb.

Spectre's real crime was retroactively ruining all the previous Craig Bond movies by saying that "It was Blofeld all along!", which was just mind-numbingly awful.

Also I still think Luke's force projection facing off against the First Order might be one of the most Jedi things ever

Also agree!

 

[Crewman6]

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Sadly, the fate of Mon Mothma is that she had to appear in "Ahsoka", which is a punishment worse even than the prisons on Narkina 5.

 

[Starkers]

EXACTLY! So true. Ugh, Spectre was the worst and those moments are virtually identical and are equally dumb.

Spectre's real crime was retroactively ruining all the previous Craig Bond movies by saying that "It was Blofeld all along!", which was just mind-numbingly awful.

Also agree!

I could accept that Le Chiffre and Dominic Green were Spectre agents all along and that Quantum was just another name for Spectre, but retconning Silva into being a henchman when he was clearly his own man and didn't report to anyone, went against the grain.

 

[TedShatner10]

Spectre's real crime was retroactively ruining all the previous Craig Bond movies by saying that "It was Blofeld all along!", which was just mind-numbingly awful.

Like with Ben saying Rey was a "nobody" (a Palpatine or not) I never took Blofeld's narcissistic, emotionally manipulative and harmful blatherings to Bond completely at face value - I now see (with a fair degree of headcanoning) that Blofeld was an Elon Musk type figure who took advantage of the damage inflicted by Mr. White and Silva earlier on, then claiming it as his own as he climbed to the top of the Quantum/SPECTRE pecking order between the Craig movies.

Also, while I never accepted Silva was ever a formal member of SPECTRE and had far too of an angrily driven ego to be part of the inner circle occupied by White and Blofeld, he was his own man, but I can very much imagine he was a SPECTRE asset or ally who received funding and logistics from Mr. White or Blofeld through hidden proxies (like Marco Sciarra).

 

[David cgc]

I assumed they were going somewhere with there being villains with color-themed names three movies in a row (White, Green, Silva), but I guess having James Bond figure out an obvious clue wouldn’t have been as satisfying as just showing their pictures on a computer screen while the new guy monologued.

 

[TedShatner10]

I assumed they were going somewhere with there being villains with color-themed names three movies in a row (White, Green, Silva), but I guess having James Bond figure out an obvious clue wouldn’t have been as satisfying as just showing their pictures on a computer screen while the new guy monologued.

It treats the audience like idiots and cuts unnecessary corners, but there's enough ambiguity and hidden or offscreen info (Mr. White in hiding and terminally ill after being poisoned) to treat Blofeld as a bloviating cheater who orchestrated a power grab sometime between Skyfall and SPECTRE.

With the ring being vague evidence that a major arms dealer and middle man fixer like Marco Sciarra shook hands with all of Bond's old enemies by partial coincidence.

But we're going drastically off topic now.

 

[The Wormhole]

The whole Khan reveal, much like the Blofeld reveal in Spectre, makes zero sense because in both cases it's a reveal for the audience not the characters.

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[fireproof78]

Also I still think Luke's force projection facing off against the First Order might be one of the most Jedi things ever

I agree on this point, but

Lord I hate STID so much. The whole Khan reveal, much like the Blofeld reveal in Spectre, makes zero sense because in both cases it's a reveal for the audience not the characters.

Disagree on this point. I don't know Bond, don't care to, but Khan's reveal is actually better if viewed as a reasserting of past authority. He's reclaimed his identity, no longer a fiction.

Like the painting by McGivers it is the beginning of showing his true form. Like Kirk in the previous film his name is his identity.

 

[Saul]

But, no, Luke would've reacted with zen-like equanimity to seeing a vision of his best friend being run through and his sister being blasted into space by a masked ghoul who worships one of the greatest monsters of history.

Well yeah actually because he basically went through the same thing in the previous trilogy and got through it.

You know, just like he did when he saw Han being tortured on Cloud City, or when Vader threatened to take Leia as his apprentice, both situations where he famously considered the situation carefully and didn't immediately fly off the handle and lash out.

And after all of that, going through those mistakes, temptations and almost becoming his father's successor, he didn't. In the original trilogy he was someone who had no idea who he was, no idea of his significance or what the force was about, with no real teachers other than a ghost and a hermit. But he made it through to the end. Why would he let the same crap influence him again decades later after he became a master of his craft? Or is he just doomed to repeat his mistakes and learn nothing and need Yoda to once again show up and teach him something when he's an old man?

Having Luke throw away the lightsaber is, in fact, a wonderful bit of writing that certain mewling fanboys just don't understand.

Or it's just the writer of the movie thinking he's cleverer than he actually is by subverting expectations and repeating the same trick again and again throughout the movie.

 

[cooleddie74]

We do see Luke repeating some of the classic mistakes of the old Jedi Order despite his best intentions. When he offers Grogu the choice of returning to Din Djarin and keeping his relationship with him or remaining at Luke's new Jedi Academy to be trained he gives a black-and-white, binary choice with no grey area. Want to be a Jedi? Renounce your current emotional attachments and relationship with the Mandalorian. Want to be with your friend? Then walk away from becoming a Jedi.

Luke means well and by now he's aware of the Order's history before its fall, but those binary choices are part of what led Jedi like Luke's own father down the path of anger and the Dark Side. A little more flexibility on the part of a teacher and Master like Luke would have been good, considering that Anakin was at least in part the result of the old Jedi Order being far too strict and judgmental about personal relationships and the happiness they can bring someone.

 

[Crewman6]

I could accept that Le Chiffre and Dominic Green were Spectre agents all along and that Quantum was just another name for Spectre, but retconning Silva into being a henchman when he was clearly his own man and didn't report to anyone, went against the grain.

Because Blofeld is such a lame character and his whole "jealous brother" motivation so hilariously awful and hacky, suggesting that everyone in (far better) Bond movies is connected to him just diminishes all of it. Shudder. Frankly, Casino Royale is really the only truly good Craig movie, which is a shame, since he's a great Bond.

 

[Crewman6]

Like with Ben saying Rey was a "nobody" (a Palpatine or not) I never took Blofeld's narcissistic, emotionally manipulative and harmful blatherings to Bond completely at face value - I now see (with a fair degree of headcanoning) that Blofeld was an Elon Musk type figure who took advantage of the damage inflicted by Mr. White and Silva earlier on, then claiming it as his own as he climbed to the top of the Quantum/SPECTRE pecking order between the Craig movies.

Also, while I never accepted Silva was ever a formal member of SPECTRE and had far too of an angrily driven ego to be part of the inner circle occupied by White and Blofeld, he was his own man, but I can very much imagine he was a SPECTRE asset or ally who received funding and logistics from Mr. White or Blofeld through hidden proxies (like Marco Sciarra).

I mean, this is pretty decent head canon to try to minimize Spectre's damage. My head canon is just to ignore and pretend it never happened.

 

[Crewman6]

We do see Luke repeating some of the classic mistakes of the old Jedi Order despite his best intentions. When he offers Grogu the choice of returning to Din Djarin and keeping his relationship with him or remaining at Luke's new Jedi Academy to be trained he gives a black-and-white, binary choice with no grey area. Want to be a Jedi? Renounce your current emotional attachments and relationship with the Mandalorian. Want to be with your friend? Then walk away from becoming a Jedi.

And that moment was when the Luke character was truly ruined. Nothing to do with TLJ, or even the entire sequel trilogy. But, man, that moment in Boba Fett positively enraged me, that they would literally have Luke repeat the same bone-headed Jedi dogma that helped contribute to their downfall. Even after it was specifically his attachment to his father that saved him, and by extension, the entire galaxy.

It was in that moment that I was basically done with all of Filoni and Favreau's bullshit forever.

So. Flipping. Awful.

 

[Gaith]

No, he chose the one that made the most narrative sense. Having Luke go on a "super duper secret mission" to find some bullshit magical hail mary that didn't work, only then to become grumpy and bitter would be a completely useless, unnecessary stutter step that would accomplish nothing.

I gotta respectfully disagree. This plot point would required Luke to deliver a 30- or 60-second monologue, and it would accomplish explaining why he got to the Ach-To, why he seemingly abandoned his family and galaxy, and why he's remained in isolation ever since. And a monologue about how he had to confront the reality that there were no magical fixes to his failure could have been quite powerful.

Anyhow, I rest my case the matter; YMMV.

Two different circumstances, given that Luke was personally responsible for his nephew's training, and, by extension, his fall. [...] Three, Luke states it was a moment of pure instinct. We see all throughout the saga films that the Jedi pull their lightsaber in confronting the Dark Side. Luke responded as his masters.

Which is exactly why Luke shouldn't have brought his saber to the hut at all. In doing so, he utterly failed to recall his lesson from Dagobah in confronting his Dark Side fears: “Your weapons, you will not need them.”

But, not only does he bring his weapon into Ben's hut, he decides to confront him in the middle of the night while he sleeps rather than take a calm, daytime walk with him the next morning... why? What ticking clock was there that demanded he confront Ben in a time and manner both of them would be at their most jumpy?

TLJ only makes any sense if pretty much everyone is a moron.

 

[fireproof78]

Why would he let the same crap influence him again decades later after he became a master of his craft?

Because it's not the same.

A little more flexibility on the part of a teacher and Master like Luke would have been good, considering that Anakin was at least in part the result of the old Jedi Order being far too strict and judgmental about personal relationships and the happiness they can bring someone.

Agreed, but I don't know how much space he was given to actually grow the Order. The demand on him was to restart the Jedi Order and protect the New Republic. Not exactly an easy task for one person.

TLJ only makes any sense if pretty much everyone is a moron.

Agree to disagree

 

[Yistaan]

Agreed, but I don't know how much space he was given to actually grow the Order. The demand on him was to restart the Jedi Order and protect the New Republic. Not exactly an easy task for one person.

Much like how the priesthood struggles to get recruits in real life, Luke was going to have an uphill job once the Mandalorian established he maintained the old Order's rules against marriage and attachments--he wouldn't even let Grogu hang out with Din much, resulting in Grogu leaving and I'm sure there were many more similar cases in the new canon.

Legends established that he abolished those rules and/or made them extremely lenient (admittedly this was a hastily written-in retcon as Legends began before the prequels revealed Jedi couldn't marry and have attachments), allowing him to gain many more followers that were able to fight off the Vong.

One wonders if, real world story writing demanding Luke be alone for the new movies aside, if in-universe he had followed the style of his Legends counterpart, he would've had a surviving Jedi Order.

 

[TedShatner10]

Because Blofeld is such a lame character and his whole "jealous brother" motivation so hilariously awful and hacky, suggesting that everyone in (far better) Bond movies is connected to him just diminishes all of it. Shudder. Frankly, Casino Royale is really the only truly good Craig movie, which is a shame, since he's a great Bond.

Evil (getting around Blofeld's multi-billion fortune and private armies) is almost inevitably pathetically petty and envy driven, Le Chifre was a cowardly snake afraid for his own skin, Greene was a nobody pawn who thought was more important than he actually was, Mr. White slowly lost himself, Silva was permanently in every kind of pain until he had to be killed, and Safin treated his own great loss as an excuse to become a meaningless monster.

 

[Crewman6]

Evil (getting around Blofeld's multi-billion fortune and private armies) is almost inevitably pathetically petty and envy driven, Le Chifre was a cowardly snake afraid for his own skin, Greene was a nobody pawn who thought was more important than he actually was, Mr. White slowly lost himself, Silva was permanently in every kind of pain until he had to be killed, and Safin treated his own great loss as an excuse to become a meaningless monster.

You make good points, but, come on! James Bond was Blofeld's adoptive brother that he was jealous of because of daddy issues! Oy.....so ridiculous, so awful. Literally just about any other motivation (or NO motivation!) would have been better.

 

[Crewman6]

I gotta respectfully disagree. This plot point would required Luke to deliver a 30- or 60-second monologue, and it would accomplish explaining why he got to the Ach-To, why he seemingly abandoned his family and galaxy, and why he's remained in isolation ever since. And a monologue about how he had to confront the reality that there were no magical fixes to his failure could have been quite powerful.

Anyhow, I rest my case the matter; YMMV.

Your pitch isn't bad, but it's also redundant. "Hey, I've given up completely and feel like a failure, versus, "I tried to do this one thing that you'll never see, off camera, it didn't work so now I feel like a failure and have given up."

It buys that he made an attempt, which many people had an issue with, but is also just a bunch of clumsy exposition to arrive at the same destination.

The point should be that Luke feels like a failure because what he did with Ben/Kylo, not because super secret mystery plan we'll never see also failed. That kind of blunts the point.

YMMV.

 

[Crewman6]

Back on topic, though. Andor was fun!