• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

DC Cinematic Universe ( The James Gunn era)

There's way better music in Williams' Superman soundtrack than the main theme. If Jaws, Star Wars, Close Encounters, Superman, and Raiders are regarded as a pentalogy, then, despite the profound excellence of this music as a whole, I've always thought that the main theme to Superman is among the weakest pieces of the entire set. The "Love Theme from Superman" is powerful and timeless, and there are several other exceptional "movements" of the soundtrack that easily surpass the main theme; examples include "Leaving Home," "The Planet Krypton," and "The Fortress of Solitude". If I never heard the main theme in a Superman movie to come, I would not miss it.

Just as a "by the way," if Holst influenced Williams, then Copland certainly did, as well.
 
Personally, I compare the John Williams Superman theme to the Godzilla theme by Akira Ifukube. It's not strictly necessary for a good installment of the franchise, but it is certainly nice to have.

Except, as with the James Bond theme, the Ifukube Godzilla theme debuted at the very start of the series, while Williams's Superman theme didn't exist until 37 years into the character's cinematic career and was itself an homage to the themes that preceded it. Also, there have been some interesting alternative Godzilla themes composed over the years, for instance Michiru Ohshima's theme from three of the Millennium-era films.

I'm sure that in 1978, there were some fans who complained that John Williams wrote a new Superman theme instead of reusing the Leon Klatzkin TV theme they were familiar with.
 
I think they ought to work in a few notes of the Klatzkin theme for the Reeves series as well. I won't be surprised if they do.

John Murphy is writing the score for this, BTW. I'm sure it will be fine; anyone but Zimmerman or Giacchino at this point. They do everything, and neither is a Goldsmith or Williams.
 
I'm sure that in 1978, there were some fans who complained that John Williams wrote a new Superman theme instead of reusing the Leon Klatzkin TV theme they were familiar with.
No. In 1978. Williams had been anointed a god by the fanboise. Also, this kind of cavilling* was quarantined by the limited reach of mimeography, pulp magazines** like Starlog, and sercon kiddies who insisted on being sober after midnight in the convention party suites.

*Just don't.
**In 1978? Yes it was. Pulp with color insert pages and slick covers.
 
Do we know that they're actually using the old theme in the final movie? Lots of trailer use temporary music that never appears in the final movie.
There was the Man of Steel trailer that used Howard Shore's "Fall of Gandalf" music from Fellowship of the Ring.

I still think that trailer was the best Superman movie ever. Seriously. It was Superman by way of Terence Malick, all images and emotions, no narrative. On its own, it is perfect. I need nothing else.
 
Except, as with the James Bond theme, the Ifukube Godzilla theme debuted at the very start of the series, while Williams's Superman theme didn't exist until 37 years into the character's cinematic career and was itself an homage to the themes that preceded it. Also, there have been some interesting alternative Godzilla themes composed over the years, for instance Michiru Ohshima's theme from three of the Millennium-era films.
To your first point, I don't care if it was first or not, the important thing is the iconic status in association with the character and franchise, but If you care, there was a James Bond TV film preceding the Monty Norman theme, and there was also a Godzilla radio serial which, while made to promote the upcoming movie, did not use the Ifukube theme.

To your second point, please read more carefully. I said that the respective theme was not necessary, but nice to have. Yes, there is Godzilla music other than Ifukube's that I enjoy, as there is also Superman music not based on the Williams themes that I enjoy. But both are still the most iconic themes for their respective character/franchise.
 
To your first point, I don't care if it was first or not, the important thing is the iconic status in association with the character and franchise, but If you care, there was a James Bond TV film preceding the Monty Norman theme, and there was also a Godzilla radio serial which, while made to promote the upcoming movie, did not use the Ifukube theme.

I think that's a very weak attempt at an analogy, since in each case that's a single obscure production, whereas Superman had many quite famous screen productions in the 37 years before the Donner movie, including an animated short series, an extremely popular and long-running radio series, two theatrical serials, and a popular and successful television series -- most of which had their own distinct musical themes (though the radio series adopted the Timberg theme), two of which became so associated with Superman that Williams's theme was a tribute to them.

See, this is the problem. People today have forgotten how much history Superman had before the Donner film. If anything, Superman had a much larger and more influential cultural footprint in the 1940s-50s than he's had since 1978, since he's been largely eclipsed since then by Batman and eventually by Marvel. People today think of the film as the iconic original, but the Donner film itself was a nostalgic tribute to Superman's history, as the opening moments of the film make clear.

Anyway, the Barry Nelson Casino Royale adaptation was not a TV film, but the third episode of Climax!, an anthology series that was generally performed live. The only title theme it had was the theme to Climax! And since the Godzilla serial was made to promote the movie, that makes it an offshoot of the movie rather than an independent prior work. You might as well say that Star Wars was a sequel to its novelization because the novelization came out a month or so before the film's release.
 
I'm not sure what I think of that trailer - I like individual elements but I'm not sure I like them all together (as a trailer). I'll likely still see it at the Cinema.
 
Oh, so iconic status and mainstream appeal do matter?

I'm just saying it's not a competition. Williams is not the only composer who did a great Superman theme, and I think people deserve credit and acknowledgment for their work. I don't want to argue over which Superman composers should be acknowledged, because they all should be.

Imagine if the filmmakers in the 1970s had insisted that nostalgia had to outweigh originality, and they'd required Williams to recycle the Leon Klatzkin theme. Then we never would've had the Williams theme. It's not wrong to innovate. Every great thing we love from the past was a novelty at first, so being opposed to novelty makes no sense. There are other great composers out there now, and any one of them could create the next great Superman theme. I just think they deserve the same opportunity that John Williams was given.
 
I didn't see any of the build-up to the trailer, so it appearing on my YT feed was a pleasant surprise.

Consider me hyped. I love how boldly, unabashedly comic-booky it seems, but also that James Gunn knows how to deliver on the feels.

Superman was my first geek-love (Lois and Clark) before I got into X-Men comics for a time, then Trek. Visually, it's clear they've let it bake (unlike a lot of MCU conveyor belt tripe recently); crisp and colorful.

Definitely want to see this on the big screen; last comic book film I saw at the theater was Dr Strange 2, which was a tap out for me mindlessly handing money over for every new MCU entry.

The two of them are threatening to outrank my favorite Clark / Lois pairing (Cain / Hatcher).

Edit: In the interview, Superman's frustration at being maligned for trying to do the right thing, which he angrily capped off with "I was just trying to do good!!!; I loved the frusration.
 
Last edited:
I don’t know. The one thing I was really forward to about this new Superman project was a new theme and so I’m a bit disappointed.

Agreed.

I just hope their new Batman uses the ‘66 theme.

You can bet that's never going to happen, since every live action Batman film--from Burton/Schumacher to Nolan to Snyder to Reeves--were never going to use that TV theme to color the films, or suggest any association with the Dozier series.

The difference with the MCU is that it's the same interpretation of the character in the same continuity having multiple themes, which annoys me in the same way that multiple different interpretations/continuities of Superman using the same theme annoys me. I feel that if it's the same incarnation of the character, I prefer them to have a consistent theme, and if it's a new version, I like it if they have their own theme to distinguish them from earlier versions.

^ This.

Do we know that they're actually using the old theme in the final movie? Lots of trailer use temporary music that never appears in the final movie.

If the Williams music is only used in the trailer, then its misleading. That said, some comments here indicated the Williams music is used in the new film.
 
[QUOTE="BillJ, post: 15142674, member:
It is a play on the public’s nostalgia, a play that I would’ve likely made if I were in Gunn’s seat.
[/QUOTE]

It’s not a play on “the public’s” nostalgia, it’s a play on GenX’s nostalgia. This theme is not, and has not, ever been anywhere near as iconic or even familiar to a broad swath of the public as the Star Wars and Bond theme. Millennials have no attachment to the Reeve films and neither does GenZ and that’s assuming they even know the film even exists. If Rick and Morty didn’t exist, GenZ would most likely not even be aware that Back To The Future exists.

Every generation thinks the things they love will never fade away and that following generations will revere those things the way they did and that ain’t the case. Pickford and Fairbanks in the ‘20’s had a level of fame that dwarfed Beatlemania on its best day. They and their beloved films were all but forgotten by the next generation a mere 20 years later. We’re almost a half century from ‘78.

Our generation didn’t give a shit about any of the entertainment that our parents grew up on no matter how “good” or “timeless” they tried to tell us it was.

I enjoyed the ‘78 theme, had the record and everything. I don’t really need to hear it again. I don’t need to watch our generation desperately try to shove it down everyone’s throat because of our nostalgia over something no other generation really cares about. That’s old people thinking and I will never subscribe to it.

Is it a deal breaker for me? No, the trailer looked fantastic and if I had any concern it’s that Metamorpho seems bizarrely sedate instead of having his Ben Grimm-esque personality.

I plan on being there on opening weekend as this is the film I’m most looking forward to.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top