Except when it would.
But enough about superhero movies. What about "Chasing Squirrels?"
DC Cinematic Universe ( The James Gunn era)
- Thread starter Samurai8472
- Start date
But enough about superhero movies. What about "Chasing Squirrels?"
But that's why it seems strange to me to reuse the Reeve theme for Brandon Routh's Superman or David Corenswet's. I'm used to different Supermen having their own themes -- Bud Collyer had his, George Reeves had his, Dean Cain had his, the DCAU Superman had his, Henry Cavill had his, Tyler Hoechlin had his (two different ones, in fact, though Superman & Lois's theme was far less memorable than his motif in Supergirl), etc. The only other Superman leitmotif that's been used for two different incarnations -- indeed, two entirely different characters -- is the theme that Kevin Kiner wrote in 1988 for the young Clark Kent version of Superboy and revived recently in Titans for the Conner Kent Superboy.
See, that's why my perception is different. I remember the Williams theme fondly, of course, but it's far from the only Superman theme I remember fondly. I like most of them. I like that they're different explorations of the same basic heroic march style that Sammy Timberg started us off with. To me, there isn't just one Superman theme -- Superman themes are an entire genre unto themselves. And thus, I welcome new contributions to the genre.
Yeah, none of those others came even close to matching the 1978 Williams Superman Theme in greatness or remembrance.
(a lot of folks believe that John Williams is probably the greatest movie composer since the composers from the 1940's & '50s)
Your feelings are valid, but in this particular case, that's not sufficient enough to convince most folks that what you prescribe from an creative artist's POV, is going to change their minds.
(a lot of folks believe that John Williams is probably the greatest movie composer since the composers from the 1940's & '50s)
Your feelings are valid, but in this particular case, that's not sufficient enough to convince most folks that what you prescribe from an creative artist's POV, is going to change their minds.
I'll agree to this extent: The theme to the George Reeves Adventures of Superman series is also great, memorable, and immediately evokes SUPERMAN, at least to fans of a certain age, and/or those with knowledge of and love for the character's history. Far from that meaning it should never be used again, however, to me it just means it would be amazing to hear it homaged in the score of a new Superman production, just as Williams's theme has (rightfully) been.
This is a very good comparison. James Bond films have their own soundtracks, but variations of the main theme remain. Another iconic example is the Mission: Impossible theme or even the original Star Trek theme. People hear the music and immediately associate with something specific.
I will also add that the Williams theme had no place in Man of Steel so Snyder also made a great choice not including it.
I don't get which version lost. To me it is neither.
This is counterfactual. Again, nothing between the Ruby-Spears animated Superman in 1988 and the Smallville episode Rosetta in 2003 reused the Williams theme. It wasn't some default norm from the beginning; its reuse is a change that's been introduced by more recent productions. And only Smallville, Superman Returns, and the Flash movie have really done it since then, until now. Even within the past two decades, it's more the exception than the rule.
As with Trek, the difference is that in both cases, it's the original theme being used. Even more so than with Trek, the Bond and M:I themes have been consistently used from the beginning. That's not true of Superman, since out of the 83 years of filmed Superman productions, the Williams theme didn't exist for the first 37 years and was only used onscreen from 1978-88, then again in 2003, 2006, 2011, and 2023, with numerous other themes being used in other productions in the meantime.
Exactly, there was a moment the first time I watched MoS when there was a pause in the fight between Zod and Kal. I fully expected Kal-El to convince Zod that his plan was flawed and for the climax of the movie to be the two of theme working together to repair the damage/save Earth. The movie could have ended with Zod setting out for a new world to settle and an uneasy truce between Kal and the other Kryptonians.
Is it because they didn't want to use the music, or that they didn't want to pay to use the music?
I watched the trailer with my family and my dog who is a tiny terrier/schnauzer mix. My dog doesn't watch screens for some reason but Krypto's bark got her attention. It must have been a friendly bark because she wagged her tail. My kids and wife all had the same reaction--first reaction was "it's not dark" referring specifically to Superman's suit, second reaction "it sounds like Top Gun", third reaction "he's so cute!" referring to Krypto, fourth reaction "when is this coming out", final reaction "not until July?!?". They also commented that there were a lot of other characters in there that they didn't know but who looked interesting. My wife is also a fan of Miss Maisel and wants Lois to be as tough as the that character--I don't know what that means because I haven't seen that show. Everyone also thinks Lois and Lex both look great.
So that is my personal story about reactions from non-comic book readers.
So that is my personal story about reactions from non-comic book readers.
I noticed a lot of times, now they just use the logo for the studio producing the movies and not the parent company, the MCU movies and Star Wars movies only show the Marvel Studios and Lucasfilm logos, but not the Disney one, even though most people know Disney owns them.
I don't think it's any kind of judgement on the quality of the other themes so much as it's about the fact that a lot of people Williams' theme has come to represent Superman more than any other. It's the one piece of music you can use that will instantly bring Superman to mind for the majority of people, the only other one that might come close at this point is Save Me from Smallville.
Not even close to the reason behind the costume.
Superman in the comics--the source--has gone through numerous personality changes over the decades, and there's no one type of personality that defines who he is.
Also the 2017 version of Justice League, briefly.
That's not accurate. It also shows up in Justice League, Shazam!, Black Adam, and League of Super-Pets.
Edit: And an episode of Crisis on Infinite Earths. And Teen Titans Go! To The Movies. And The Lego Batman movie. And the earlier, cheaper Lego Batman: The Movie - DC Super Heroes Unite. And that's not including the countless times it's been used in non-DC material as a shorthand for referencing Superman. Which is a different situation to being used "officially" but it shows how ingrained the theme has become as part of Superman.
Please note: I am not arguing that it should always be used.
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There is no meaningful difference other than personal preference. Other distinctions are conjured up only to support preference.
Adding to the lengthy list, Williams is also musically homaged in the excellent Krypton TV series.
For detractors of quoting Williams, this would seem to be a battle that has been long since lost.
For detractors of quoting Williams, this would seem to be a battle that has been long since lost.
That’s wildly optimistic to the point of unrealistic. Zod was an extremist before Kal was even born. The first thing we see Zod do in MOS is kill a member of his planet’s government and stage a coup d’etat. A coup that ends with him murdering Kal’s father, Jor-El. Zod carves a killing spree across two planets, before Superman stops him.
Zod was incapable and unwilling to stop himself. He even says that it’s apart of his warrior caste programming. As soldier, it was victory or death for him.
Look no further than the Flash movie to see what would have happened if Zod got his way. He killed baby Kal, Kara and Keaton Batman with no hesitation and no sympathy.
I made a list about how DC treats Zod as a character. TL;DR he’s marked for death almost everywhere he shows up.
Musings about Zod:
If the letter V is for Vendetta. Then E should be "Expendable". Because that's what Zod is. The writers have no problem introducing Zod and then killing him off at the end of their story. Of the list below, you will note that 5 different Zods existed during the Post-Crisis (1986-2011) continuity. Being an evil Superman isn't new. The Powers That Be have access to Ultraman (the Crime Syndicate), Bizarro, Cyborg Superman (Hank Henshaw or Zor-El), Darkseid and evil versions of Clark to play with. With the exception of Bizarro (who dies frequently due to improper cloning techniques or cellular degradation), no other evil Superman character is treated as expendable as Zod is.
Superman II (1980) - Zod is depowered, thrown into a wall and down a bottomless cavern.
Superman vol 2 #22 (1988) - Supergirl Saga: Pre-Crisis Zod is executed by Superman using Green Kryptonite. This after Zod killed the entire populace of a parallel Earth and boasted about doing it again.
Action Comics #776 (2001) - Return to Krypton: A Zod from Krypton's past (before it blows up) is killed by Jor-El, when he sticks a trident into Zod's power armor. Before Zod can deliver the killing blow to Superman.
Action Comics #805 (2003) - The Zod from 1988 possess a Russian soldier and gains power to take revenge on Superman for killing him. He dies flying into Superman at full speed. Right as his own psuedo Kryptonian powers are neutralized.
Superman vol 2 #215 (2005) - For Tomorrow : This General Zod abducts 1 million Metropolis citizens and transports them into the Phantom Zone. In an attempt to lure Superman there. He dies by allowing himself to be sucked into a Phantom Zone singularity as the region of the zone he and Superman were in imploded.
Action Comics #845 (2007) - Last Son through War of the Supermen (2010) : Geoff Johns introduces the "real" General Zod of the post-Crisis on Infinite Earth's (1985) continuity. Ignoring all the ones before. This one is highly based on the Zod who appears in Superman II. As the story "Last Son" featured Richard Donner as a co-writer for the title. This Zod escaped the Zone 3 times, was imprisoned in the Zone 3 times, before Barry Flashpointed the universe in 2011.
Smallville CW (2007-2010) Season 6, 7, 8 and 9: General Zod's Phantom Zone spirit possesses Lex Luthor as a host as a way to escape the PZ imprisonment. Trapping Clark in the PZ in his place. Clark escapes and uses a Krytonian crystal to free Lex from possession, and send Zod's spirit back to the PZ.
Major Zod, a clone of the Zod created by a Kryptonian super macguffin, The Orb. Like the Codex in the DCEU, it contained a registry of citizens and could recreate important figures of Krypton when prompted. Major Zod also tried to take over the Earth but was thwarted by Clark, teleported off Earth and arrested by the Kandorians to be tried for his crimes.
Man of Steel (2013) - DCEU Zod was killed after his destroy all life on Earth plot was foiled.
New 52 Zod (2013) - Visually taking cues from MOS. This Zod would escape the Phantom Zone and basically menace the world. The writers don't seem to know what to do with him, except not put him back in the Phantom Zone. This Zod has fought Superman, Hal Jordan, Wonder Woman, and the Suicide Squad. He would later become a member of the Suicide Squad. Taking orders from Waller. How embarrassing.
Superman Earth One Vol 3 (2015) - Zod is killed by Alexa Luthor. Wife of Alexander Luthor. After he kills Lex and is about to kill Superman. He is depowered with a red sun gun by Lex and shot 4 times in the chest by Alexa with a revolver. Will the humiliation end?
Supergirl CW (2018) - Season 3 episode 12 "For the Good". Superman is stated to have killed his Zod in a past adventure.
Superman and Lois (2021) - Season 1 episode 12 "Through The Valley of Death". The deceased Zod's consciousness possess Superman and is later destroyed by Superman. With John Henry's help.
Flash (2023) - Zod finally wins one. He succeeds in killing both baby Kal, adult Kara and Keaton Batman.
If the letter V is for Vendetta. Then E should be "Expendable". Because that's what Zod is. The writers have no problem introducing Zod and then killing him off at the end of their story. Of the list below, you will note that 5 different Zods existed during the Post-Crisis (1986-2011) continuity. Being an evil Superman isn't new. The Powers That Be have access to Ultraman (the Crime Syndicate), Bizarro, Cyborg Superman (Hank Henshaw or Zor-El), Darkseid and evil versions of Clark to play with. With the exception of Bizarro (who dies frequently due to improper cloning techniques or cellular degradation), no other evil Superman character is treated as expendable as Zod is.
Superman II (1980) - Zod is depowered, thrown into a wall and down a bottomless cavern.
Superman vol 2 #22 (1988) - Supergirl Saga: Pre-Crisis Zod is executed by Superman using Green Kryptonite. This after Zod killed the entire populace of a parallel Earth and boasted about doing it again.
Action Comics #776 (2001) - Return to Krypton: A Zod from Krypton's past (before it blows up) is killed by Jor-El, when he sticks a trident into Zod's power armor. Before Zod can deliver the killing blow to Superman.
Action Comics #805 (2003) - The Zod from 1988 possess a Russian soldier and gains power to take revenge on Superman for killing him. He dies flying into Superman at full speed. Right as his own psuedo Kryptonian powers are neutralized.
Superman vol 2 #215 (2005) - For Tomorrow : This General Zod abducts 1 million Metropolis citizens and transports them into the Phantom Zone. In an attempt to lure Superman there. He dies by allowing himself to be sucked into a Phantom Zone singularity as the region of the zone he and Superman were in imploded.
Action Comics #845 (2007) - Last Son through War of the Supermen (2010) : Geoff Johns introduces the "real" General Zod of the post-Crisis on Infinite Earth's (1985) continuity. Ignoring all the ones before. This one is highly based on the Zod who appears in Superman II. As the story "Last Son" featured Richard Donner as a co-writer for the title. This Zod escaped the Zone 3 times, was imprisoned in the Zone 3 times, before Barry Flashpointed the universe in 2011.
Smallville CW (2007-2010) Season 6, 7, 8 and 9: General Zod's Phantom Zone spirit possesses Lex Luthor as a host as a way to escape the PZ imprisonment. Trapping Clark in the PZ in his place. Clark escapes and uses a Krytonian crystal to free Lex from possession, and send Zod's spirit back to the PZ.
Major Zod, a clone of the Zod created by a Kryptonian super macguffin, The Orb. Like the Codex in the DCEU, it contained a registry of citizens and could recreate important figures of Krypton when prompted. Major Zod also tried to take over the Earth but was thwarted by Clark, teleported off Earth and arrested by the Kandorians to be tried for his crimes.
Man of Steel (2013) - DCEU Zod was killed after his destroy all life on Earth plot was foiled.
New 52 Zod (2013) - Visually taking cues from MOS. This Zod would escape the Phantom Zone and basically menace the world. The writers don't seem to know what to do with him, except not put him back in the Phantom Zone. This Zod has fought Superman, Hal Jordan, Wonder Woman, and the Suicide Squad. He would later become a member of the Suicide Squad. Taking orders from Waller. How embarrassing.
Superman Earth One Vol 3 (2015) - Zod is killed by Alexa Luthor. Wife of Alexander Luthor. After he kills Lex and is about to kill Superman. He is depowered with a red sun gun by Lex and shot 4 times in the chest by Alexa with a revolver. Will the humiliation end?
Supergirl CW (2018) - Season 3 episode 12 "For the Good". Superman is stated to have killed his Zod in a past adventure.
Superman and Lois (2021) - Season 1 episode 12 "Through The Valley of Death". The deceased Zod's consciousness possess Superman and is later destroyed by Superman. With John Henry's help.
Flash (2023) - Zod finally wins one. He succeeds in killing both baby Kal, adult Kara and Keaton Batman.
I will say this though, I don’t think there is any version of Superman who actually hates their Zod. Zod is a Hitler stand-in, but he’s not nearly as bad as Darkseid or Thanos are. Thanos was so bad that the Avengers killed that prick twice in the same movie. Once in the intro and a second time during the climax at the end.
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