In Your Mind, Did Kirk and Spock Meet Before?

[Zeppster]

Would one say, "In all the years I've known you" if it'd been fewer than, say, seven to ten? It's reasonable to infer from "all" in that context that Kirk isn't just speaking about the five-year mission he's commanding.

Kirk addresses Pike rather familiarly, as "Chris," in "The Menagerie." Generally, one doesn't do that with a superior if you know him only casually; it's considered a rather gauche breach of protocol and propriety.

Here's a question that arises on occasion: Could he have served as Pike's XO for a time before taking command of Enterprise? I ask because I don't recall if there's anything in the canon concerning his assignments pre-Enterprise that precludes it.

A few months as the heir apparent being groomed by an experienced commander would seem a minimal requirement for the center seat on a Federation starship, no matter how hot a shot Kirk was.

There's nothing really saying Kirk didn't serve on the Enterprise before being Captain.

 

[A beaker full of death]

But don't forget - Gary Mitchell was his XO until he died.

Possibly. Or then not. It's never stated who was the XO in "Where No Man", and it's never stated what the titles of Spock and Mitchell were, respectively.

True, though there's that line about Kirk having picked Mitchell to serve on his first command. To me, that tips the scales toward Mitchell.

 

[Warped9]

This isn't meant to be a discussion of whether there's anything explicitly stated in onscreen dialogue to confirm or deny that Kirk and Spock met and were friends before they served together on the Enterprise. I'm pretty sure that such a discussion has been done enough times. Rather, I was just curious as to how you thought of it in your own personal continuity. I thought of this because I was thinking about Shatner's Academy book (which I haven't read), and trying to decide whether I liked the idea of those two meeting at the Academy.
I, personally, feel that their relationship depicted in WNMHGB gives absolutely no indication of lifelong friendship. Rather, it seems to me that in that episode, Kirk is having to deal with Spock, the stranger, telling him to kill Gary, the lifelong friend (Kinda like if in TMP, Decker was advising Kirk to kill Spock). I also feel that the deep, abiding relationship they have during the course of the franchise could very reasonably be the result of the close-knit time they spent together on the Enterprise during the five-year mission (as well as any previous shakedown cruise), and need not be the product of some destined lifelong relationship, like Pete and MJ in the Spider-Man movies (which also doesn't match the source material).
So, in my own personal Star Trek continuity, Kirk and Spock didn't meet before serving together on the Enterprise. In WNMHGB, Spock was just another officer, that had probably received a very good recommendation from Pike, and their friendship developed from there. That's the way I see it (I'll probably still read Shatner's book eventually, though, if only for curiosity's sake), how about you?

No, I always got the impression that they met when Kirk assumed command.

The fact that the next film will contradict that is just one more thing (among many) convincing me it's a restart.

There's no fact that says they didn't meet before or that they really did. It's all too vague and can be seen one way or another. It's not a fact one way or another. It's your feeling.

The subtext is pretty damned strong that they didn't meet before Kirk came aboard. And when you weigh the anecdotal evidence later throughout the series there's no way Kirk and Spock went to the Academy.

Putting them together before TOS is just fanboy mentality to tie things together in a cute and tidy package. Yuch!

 

[Zeppster]

No, I always got the impression that they met when Kirk assumed command.

The fact that the next film will contradict that is just one more thing (among many) convincing me it's a restart.

There's no fact that says they didn't meet before or that they really did. It's all too vague and can be seen one way or another. It's not a fact one way or another. It's your feeling.

The subtext is pretty damned strong that they didn't meet before Kirk came aboard. And when you weigh the anecdotal evidence later throughout the series there's no way Kirk and Spock went to the Academy.

Putting them together before TOS is just fanboy mentality to tie things together in a cute and tidy package. Yuch!

They could have met each other at the academy since as it was stated earlier by someone else. There's nothing against it. There's nothing really strong saying that they met on board or before it. It's left to all be vague because the show only worried about those episodes for the most part. There are few references to the past.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

And just because they may have been at the academy at the same time doesn't mean they knew each other, though they may have known of each other. What springs to mind is the fact that Ulysses Grant and William Sherman attended West Point at the same time, but didn't become friends until the Civil War. Sherman knew of Grant, who was an underclassman during Sherman's senior year, but they didn't--to my knowledge--have a lot of interaction at the time. The same could be true of Kirk and Spock. But that--like all of this--is pure conjecture until something is stated on screen.

 

[Warped9]

They could have met each other at the academy since as it was stated earlier by someone else.

State your source. I never heard that reference anywhere in TOS or the films.

 

[JM1776]

Putting them together before TOS is just fanboy mentality to tie things together in a cute and tidy package. Yuch!

Not if they served together aboard Enterprise after "The Cage" and before "Where No Man Has Gone Before"—which seems to reconcile quite a bit of this. Rather than "cute and tidy," it seems more a sturdy and practical box.

 

[Zeppster]

State your source. I never heard that reference anywhere in TOS or the films.

There's really nothing saying either way. But earlier in the thread

"Journey To Babel" established that Spock entered the Academy 18 years prior to that episode. "Deadly Years" established Kirk's age as 34 so he entered the Academy 16 years prior to that episode. (assuming he was 18). Based on that, Spock was two years ahead of Kirk at the Academy. So it's possible that they met at the Academy or at least passed each other in the hall.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Putting them together before TOS is just fanboy mentality to tie things together in a cute and tidy package. Yuch!

Not if they served together aboard Enterprise after "The Cage" and before "Where No Man Has Gone Before"—which seems to reconcile quite a bit of this. Rather than "cute and tidy," it seems more a sturdy and practical box.

Which would only work if there were a captain between Pike and Kirk, since Kirk stated in The Menagerie that he'd only met Pike once before, when Pike had been promoted to Fleet Captain. And I don't think that would fit with Spock having served with Pike for 11+ years.

 

[Sir Rhosis]

But don't forget - Gary Mitchell was his XO until he died.

Possibly. Or then not. It's never stated who was the XO in "Where No Man", and it's never stated what the titles of Spock and Mitchell were, respectively.

True, though there's that line about Kirk having picked Mitchell to serve on his first command. To me, that tips the scales toward Mitchell.

Neither the first draft script nor the final which I have explicitly states who the first officer is, although a line of narrative in the first draft does state that Mitchell is "junior to Spock." In this draft, there is no chess game, and the action opens on the bridge. Kirk is at his chair, and Spock walks from station to station checking with all the officers as they approach the edge of the galaxy. When the ship's doctor (Johnson), Sulu and Dehner come to the bridge, the narrative indicates that Spock "checks with them" (no dialogue involved, it just says that when Spock sees them enter the bridge he goes over and "checks with them"). He then reports to the captain. Which to me would seem to indicate he is the first officer.

All of which goes to prove nothing, since you can't film the writer's observation that Mitchell is "junior to Spock" without dialogue. Hell, in this draft it is Spock and Mitchell who are old buddies of a sort (Mitchell whispers to him about "Frigid Liz," Spock says that a human male, could, depending on his skill, generate enough "energic heat" to change that, Mitchell opines that Spock sounds like a man with a lot of experience in that area, Spock says, "I have my moments," and Mitchell smiles and says, "I bet you do."). Kirk barely knows Mitchell in this draft.

Sir Rhosis

 

[Outpost4]

Hell, in this draft it is Spock and Mitchell who are old buddies of a sort (Mitchell whispers to him about "Frigid Liz," Spock says that a human male, could, depending on his skill, generate enough "energic heat" to change that, Mitchell opines that Spock sounds like a man with a lot of experience in that area, Spock says, "I have my moments," and Mitchell smiles and says, "I bet you do.").

Who cares who knew whom 15 years before the five year mission. This is the schnizzle. In a week when we are celebrating the birth of Carl Spock, it's cool to know the writers were thinking about him, too, 40 some odd years ago.

 

[Sir Rhosis]

^^^ I have to agree. As I reread those lines to recap for my post, I did imagine Carl in that scene with Mitchell. Now we need a Mitchell photomanip -- I think he'd be more of a beatnik type.

Sir Rhosis

 

[Michael]

^^^ I have to agree. As I reread those lines to recap for my post, I did imagine Carl in that scene with Mitchell. Now we need a Mitchell photomanip -- I think he'd be more of a beatnik type.

 

[Warped9]

State your source. I never heard that reference anywhere in TOS or the films.

There's really nothing saying either way.

But he claimed that it was actually mentioned by someone onscreen somewhere, so I'm just asking him to tell me where it was said. He won't be able to because no such thing was ever referenced.

People are falling all over themselves claiming "there's nothing to say that it couldn't have happened" to justify it happening. That's fair enough. But I'm just saying that putting the two together earlier than Kirk coming aboard is pandering to a fanboy mentality and not good storytelling. Hell, this whole prequel idea is bullshit in the first place, glazing over the fact that they can't come up with a decently genuine 5-year mission story. They're catering to the lowest denominator in doing a dumb "origin" story.

BTW, in regards to saying there could have been a Captain between Pike and Kirk to justify Kirk and Spock together on the E before Kirk gets command.

Uh, duh. No!

The series clearly established how long Pike commanded and that Kirk took over right after him. No one in between.

 

[Zeppster]

State your source. I never heard that reference anywhere in TOS or the films.

There's really nothing saying either way.

But he claimed that it was actually mentioned by someone onscreen somewhere, so I'm just asking him to tell me where it was said. He won't be able to because no such thing was ever referenced.

People are falling all over themselves claiming "there's nothing to say that it couldn't have happened" to justify it happening. That's fair enough. But I'm just saying that putting the two together earlier than Kirk coming aboard is pandering to a fanboy mentality and not good storytelling. Hell, this whole prequel idea is bullshit in the first place, glazing over the fact that they can't come up with a decently genuine 5-year mission story. They're catering to the lowest denominator in doing a dumb "origin" story.

BTW, in regards to saying there could have been a Captain between Pike and Kirk to justify Kirk and Spock together on the E before Kirk gets command.

Uh, duh. No!

The series clearly established how long Pike commanded and that Kirk took over right after him. No one in between.

Actually it just basically states that Kirk and Pike both commanded the Enterprise. Doesn't really stipulate when.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

In season 2 the episode Journey to Babel, we find out that Spock entered the academy 18 yrs prior as was already stated by Nerys Myk. If the academy is a 4 yr program and you typically start at age 18, then Spock was 22 when he graduated and at age 36 when JTB happens. In the Deadly Years which was in Season 2 Kirk States he is 34. One could assume that in the episode Menagerie in season one, Kirk was 33. Per Memory Alpha under the episode synopsis, the events of the episode The Cage and the Enterprise heading to Talos occured 13 yrs prior. That would mean that Kirk was 20 yrs old during the events of The Cage. Kirk would probably still be in the Academy for another yr or 2. That would also mean that The Cage was one of Spock's first missions. It's not "unreasonable" to think because he is a Vulcan with a nice intellect that he got a post as Science Officer for the Enterprise as his first assignment. But there is also a window for Kirk to be a sophmore while Spock was a senior at the academy. It could be plausible that as Spocks last commitment to the Academy as a Senior before going on his first mission was to try and bust this wunderkind of a phenom sophmore human known as Jim Kirk as nothing more than a cheat concerning the Kobyashi Maru. Probably because no one else has ever done it and its the logical thing to do. However Kirk does not get in trouble for cheating, infact he gets rewarded, because of this he likes Spock nonetheless, he understands Spock's use of logic. Besides, no one would find out he cheated if Spock doesn't bust him. Spock then goes to the Enterprise under Pike while Kirk finishes school. Because he's Jim Kirk and the coolest badass ever and he beat the no win scenario he obviously rises to Captain alot quicker than anyone else after graduating and then serving in various positions. When Kirk gets the news he's in command of the Enterprise and is aware that Spock is on board as Science Officer he requests that Spock become first officer. Spock has 13 yrs on the ship and is familiar with it, he knows some of the crew,and because of the Kobyashi Maru, Kirk knows Spock will always do the right thing even it means going against the Captain. This is just how I picture it. But it does make it feasible for them to be at the academy together. I also imagine that Scotty, Uhura, and Sulu were already serving on the Enterprise under Pike before Kirk, for just a few years at best. If Kirk was 34 and Spock 36 in season 2, I also imagine McCoy being around 40, that puts him at 39 in season 1 and 66 in TUC when he says he has been chief medical officer for 27 years at the trial. In Generations it states that it is 78 years later so if we minus 7 yrs from the show to put us in Season 1 of TNG that leaves us with 71 years and if we add that to McCoy's age of 66 in TUC, that Makes McCoy 137 yrs old in Encounter at Farpoint. I think they state his age as different by a year or 2 but it is close enough for me. It's kinda sketchy but that is how i rationalized it. I don't think Kirk and Spock were friends at the Academy. They knew of each other and had a rivarly as any underclassmen would have with a Senior. Why does that stupid movie Drumline come to mind? Anyhow this rivarly created a working relationship that developed into a wonderful friendship as well. In my experience some of my greatest competition have become my greatest allies. But to answer the original question for this thread, until the news of this new movie, I just assumed they met when Kirk took command in WNMHGB.

Am I the only one who couldn't read this?

Kind of a pity if you don't make the effort, because it blows a lot of fanon about whether Kirk and Spock would have been at the Academy together to irrecoverable smithereens.

 

[Ronald Held]

Should we even consider what the new movie will do to this thread?

 

[JoeZhang]

here it is in "paragraphavision!

In season 2 the episode Journey to Babel, we find out that Spock entered the academy 18 yrs prior as was already stated by Nerys Myk. If the academy is a 4 yr program and you typically start at age 18, then Spock was 22 when he graduated and at age 36 when JTB happens.

In the Deadly Years which was in Season 2 Kirk States he is 34. One could assume that in the episode Menagerie in season one, Kirk was 33. Per Memory Alpha under the episode synopsis, the events of the episode The Cage and the Enterprise heading to Talos occured 13 yrs prior.

That would mean that Kirk was 20 yrs old during the events of The Cage. Kirk would probably still be in the Academy for another yr or 2. That would also mean that The Cage was one of Spock's first missions.

It's not "unreasonable" to think because he is a Vulcan with a nice intellect that he got a post as Science Officer for the Enterprise as his first assignment. But there is also a window for Kirk to be a sophmore while Spock was a senior at the academy.

It could be plausible that as Spocks last commitment to the Academy as a Senior before going on his first mission was to try and bust this wunderkind of a phenom sophmore human known as Jim Kirk as nothing more than a cheat concerning the Kobyashi Maru. Probably because no one else has ever done it and its the logical thing to do.

However Kirk does not get in trouble for cheating, infact he gets rewarded, because of this he likes Spock nonetheless, he understands Spock's use of logic. Besides, no one would find out he cheated if Spock doesn't bust him. Spock then goes to the Enterprise under Pike while Kirk finishes school.

Because he's Jim Kirk and the coolest badass ever and he beat the no win scenario he obviously rises to Captain alot quicker than anyone else after graduating and then serving in various positions. When Kirk gets the news he's in command of the Enterprise and is aware that Spock is on board as Science Officer he requests that Spock become first officer.

Spock has 13 yrs on the ship and is familiar with it, he knows some of the crew,and because of the Kobyashi Maru, Kirk knows Spock will always do the right thing even it means going against the Captain. This is just how I picture it. But it does make it feasible for them to be at the academy together.

I also imagine that Scotty, Uhura, and Sulu were already serving on the Enterprise under Pike before Kirk, for just a few years at best. If Kirk was 34 and Spock 36 in season 2, I also imagine McCoy being around 40, that puts him at 39 in season 1 and 66 in TUC when he says he has been chief medical officer for 27 years at the trial.

In Generations it states that it is 78 years later so if we minus 7 yrs from the show to put us in Season 1 of TNG that leaves us with 71 years and if we add that to McCoy's age of 66 in TUC, that Makes McCoy 137 yrs old in Encounter at Farpoint.

I think they state his age as different by a year or 2 but it is close enough for me. It's kinda sketchy but that is how i rationalized it. I don't think Kirk and Spock were friends at the Academy. They knew of each other and had a rivarly as any underclassmen would have with a Senior.

Why does that stupid movie Drumline come to mind? Anyhow this rivarly created a working relationship that developed into a wonderful friendship as well. In my experience some of my greatest competition have become my greatest allies. But to answer the original question for this thread, until the news of this new movie, I just assumed they met when Kirk took command in WNMHGB.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Should we even consider what the new movie will do to this thread?

Hopefully render a lot of this kind of thing moot.

You know what's "fanboy mentality?" "Fanboy mentality" is wanting theories spun out of nothing but inference that seem terribly persuasive to the folks doing the spinning to trump what's actually on the screen - TOS, new movie or otherwise.

 

[Red Ranger]

People,

Some other thoughts I had. Given that Kirk and Spock approach problem-solving from very different angles, I would think that at first, they would be uneasy colleagues. That is, until they got to know each other and each saw merit in the other's worldview.

Like in "Charlie X," Spock gives Kirk a grudging compliment when he wins their game of 3-D Chess by saying, "Your illogical approach to chess does have its advantages."

In the novel "Enterprise:The First Adventure" by Vonda McIntyre, Kirk and Spock are kind of forced on each other by Starfleet Admiral Nogura, and in time, they both acknowledge the wisdom of their pairing as they can temper each other's strenghts and compensate for their weaknesses.

It also goes with the whole "uneasy allies" theme in many recent reinterpretations of classic characters, the way they now portray Batman and Superman as uneasy colleagues who don't really approve of one another's methods.

Red Ranger